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Thread: Youtube (and other video site) Links - we have embed tags!

  1. #13701
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_German_referendum

    I'd also invite you to study the events preceding this referendum before you post more about this topic.

  2. #13702
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    I have studied the history of ww2 as a hobby since I was about 12, Gerome, and I know about the events preceding and how Nazis came to power, all the way to pre WW1. So about as much as an amateur historian can, plus let me tell you back in Yugoslavia we had quite a good education about WW2 starting in elementary school for obvious reasons. God, this presuming the other side has no fucking idea what he's talking about is getting on my fucking nerves already.

    I was replying specifically to kecker's claim about peterson's quote and which event he might have been referring to and how people take this in 2 completely different ways?
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 8 2020 at 02:50:43 PM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  3. #13703
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Have you read the wikipedia article that I linked and do you still think that one can legitimately argue that?

  4. #13704
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Argue what, that Hitler's WASN'T given the powers of president of the reich with a 90% vote, in a rigged election, through fundamentally nondemocratic means?
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  5. #13705
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    "we should never forget that Hitler was elected, he was elected by a large majority too, it was a landslide vote, the kind no modern democratic leader ever gets"

  6. #13706
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I dunno, I keep seeing Peterson through the prism of people hearing what they want (or hate to hear) from the same sentence.

    For example, I dunno if that was his direct quote about Hitler, but, erm, from quick checking wiki:
    19 August 1934: The German people in a plebiscite overwhelmingly (90%) approve merger of the offices of President and Chancellor. Hitler assumes the new title of Führer und Reichskanzler (leader and Reich chancellor). He is now both the head of state and the head of government.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    "we should never forget that Hitler was elected, he was elected by a large majority too, it was a landslide vote, the kind no modern democratic leader ever gets"
    You read that as praise, while in reality it's an ominous warning. And with the way USA is heading timely one.

  7. #13707
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    But Hitler WAS elected (to become the new President Fuhrer Supreme German figure), through a referendum, by a large majority, in a landslide vote, the kind no modern democratic leader ever gets (because modern democracies don't hold such authoritarian rigged elections)?

    edit: what Rufuske said. I see someone interpreting Peterson here as somehow praising Nazis for being such overwhelming winners of free elections, when he's warning about the exact opposite, how allowing a terrible ideology to take root can lead to "free" elections with an overwhelming win and claims of legitimacy.

    So one side will see this as "look, he's giving legitimacy to LITERAL NAZIS" and the other side "see what happens when you let an oppressive ideology take root, Nazism is same as Communism, lefties are nazis" (especially when further in the lecture he compared Communism under Stalin as same state of mind, a position I actually agree with. Oppressive regimes are oppressive regimes, the perceived enemy of the state/people changes but the methodology and psychology of despotic authoritarian regimes and followers of it is literally the same. Same shit, different packaging as we say in the Balkans). It was awesome to me to see the two sides accusing each other of Nazism, and failing to see in which way they actually ARE like Nazis under Hitler or Communists under Stalin themselves, just blindly sticking to their own side without introspection.
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 8 2020 at 03:10:11 PM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  8. #13708
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    Now, Hitler was a good orator, but he, it isn’t exactly clear that he was a coherent philosophical, theorizer, although to think of him as stupid is completely missing the point. He was by no means stupid. I wouldn’t say that he was particularly educated, but he had a very powerfully developed aesthetic sense, and he spent a lot of his time designing the cities that would be built after World War II was over, and those cities were generally conceptualized by him as places where the arts, or at least the Nazi version of the arts, could flourish. So, there is no real evidence that what was wrong with the Nazis was that they were civilized. There’s more evidence actually, I think, that they were too civilized.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  9. #13709
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    I think it's not a factually correct statement, unless one implicitly includes fundamentally undemocratic votes.

  10. #13710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Now, Hitler was a good orator, but he, it isn’t exactly clear that he was a coherent philosophical, theorizer, although to think of him as stupid is completely missing the point. He was by no means stupid. I wouldn’t say that he was particularly educated, but he had a very powerfully developed aesthetic sense, and he spent a lot of his time designing the cities that would be built after World War II was over, and those cities were generally conceptualized by him as places where the arts, or at least the Nazi version of the arts, could flourish. So, there is no real evidence that what was wrong with the Nazis was that they were civilized. There’s more evidence actually, I think, that they were too civilized.
    You want argue that people that elevated death camps to factory efficiency were anything but? Eh, history will repeat and it's all your fault.

  11. #13711
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    No I want to argue that defending somebody who said that is bizarre hill to choose to die on.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  12. #13712
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Again, what exactly is controversial here? I mean, death on an industrial scale is literally what Nazis are infamous for (arguably Germans in that period, even from WW1, had a very cold machinelike approach as a nation in warfare, using science for it, mustard gas and machine guns, blitzkrieg, planes, rockets etc). It's the terrible side of civilization without morals he's warning about here. Belgian Kongo and history of Europan Colonialism, anybody?

    Again, same thing, different interpretations.

    Left interpretation: Look, he's praising Nazis for being CIVILIZED for killing Jews! OUTRAGE!

    Right interpretation: Look, he confirmed Germans were Ubermensch! HEIL PEPE!
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 8 2020 at 03:18:29 PM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  13. #13713
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Again, what exactly is controversial here? I mean, death on an industrial scale is literally what Nazis are infamous for (arguably Germans in that period, even from WW1, had a very cold machinelike approach as a nation). It's the terrible side of civilization he's warning about here.
    Or humanity as a whole.

  14. #13714
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Ah fuck it, I'm just gonna end up being called racist or some shit like that again. God dammit, if only people thought about something for longer than it takes to read a tweet they might actually be able to get their heads out of their respective camps asses and come up with their own interpretations or god forbid understand nuances of what someone tried to say. But we can't have that now, can we, because FUCK THE OTHER SIDE FUCK EM FUCK FFFFFFFFFFFF HAHAHAH WRECKED BY BENZO LOL and then go back to our respective echo solitary confinements.

    This is why I hate politics and love being contrarian to everything. Fuck the left, fuck the right, fuck centrists, fuck apoliticals, fuck anarchists, fuck intellectuals, fuck idiots, fuck me.
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 8 2020 at 03:28:53 PM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  15. #13715
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    But Hitler WAS elected (to become the new President Fuhrer Supreme German figure), through a referendum, by a large majority, in a landslide vote, the kind no modern democratic leader ever gets (because modern democracies don't hold such authoritarian rigged elections)?

    edit: what Rufuske said. I see someone interpreting Peterson here as somehow praising Nazis for being such overwhelming winners of free elections, when he's warning about the exact opposite, how allowing a terrible ideology to take root can lead to "free" elections with an overwhelming win and claims of legitimacy.

    So one side will see this as "look, he's giving legitimacy to LITERAL NAZIS" and the other side "see what happens when you let an oppressive ideology take root, Nazism is same as Communism, lefties are nazis" (especially when further in the lecture he compared Communism under Stalin as same state of mind, a position I actually agree with. Oppressive regimes are oppressive regimes, the perceived enemy of the state/people changes but the methodology and psychology of despotic authoritarian regimes and followers of it is literally the same. Same shit, different packaging as we say in the Balkans). It was awesome to me to see the two sides accusing each other of Nazism, and failing to see in which way they actually ARE like Nazis under Hitler or Communists under Stalin themselves, just blindly sticking to their own side without introspection.
    I think we agree that there is a difference between "a large majority voted for x" and "a large majority was made to vote for x". When you talk about an undemocratic votes, then you need to be explicit in case of undemocratic votes, because undemocratic votes have a completely different meaning and significance compared to democratic ones. The specific wording in the quote implies a legitimate election (not a referendum btw) and a "landslide victory" in such an election, which I dispute exists.

  16. #13716
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    It demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of history and totalitarian regimes, which is embarrassing when you consider he claims he has studied them for 4 decades.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  17. #13717
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    So I found the quote Keckers mentioned, and he's talking about the fact that Germans weren't poor unaware "victims" of Nazis and had a responsibility as a nation for allowing Hitler and his party into power, he didn't just magically pop up into existence. So ofc, context matters. Germans got swept into his populist rhetoric after the economic destruction of Germany post WW1, which itself was a reaction to dwindling resources and Germany's failure to colonize due to British and French blockade of its development overseas, which allowed the political landscape to move, which at first didn't go for "kill all Jews, conquer whole world, lose and kill millions of people, become hated by everyone, end up with country divided and start a cold war indirectly" but they were "eased" into it. Can't find the whole lecture, but I think i watched it back in the day, and the point of the lecture is "how can good people allow terrible things to happen and allow things to spiral so out of control, the infallible me would NEVER do that! Yeah, right. Here's how regimes come into power and normal people become part of it". You know, Stalin, Russia, Trump, America, dictators and genocidal regimes everywhere since always and people living in them? By the time of the referendum, Hitler and Nazis have already done quite a lot of shady shit and the majority of Germans "played along". "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"



    here's his thoughts on the leftwing critics and rightwing fans and identity politics:

    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 8 2020 at 03:57:20 PM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  18. #13718
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Please read The Coming of the Third Reich.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  19. #13719
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Am I going to find out something new, or just as a recommendation of a good historical book, or is it another "you have no idea if you haven't read this" disregard? edit: Please watch the second video in the previous post
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 8 2020 at 04:09:51 PM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  20. #13720
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Well it all started with his aggressively obnoxious stance towards pronouns
    More like sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    It boiled to him not wanting to be called out for deliberately calling trans people by names they don't want used and then getting loads of airtime for it.
    nope

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