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Thread: Verdict on ATX? ("Let's sperge about team quality so hydra can feel relevant" thread)

  1. #81
    Jade Constantine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zergl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Constantine View Post
    On Outbreak/Hydra - sorry but you are literally retarded. They ruined the last tourney with their bullshit and frankly the format is 100x better without them.
    They ruined the final but apart from that they definitely added quality spaceship pewpew to the mix.

    As I said in my earlier post, I wasn't thrilled about CCP's decision to boot both teams from the tourney but they were kinda asking for it with the shit they dumped on CCP with last year's final fuckup and gave them the necessary excuse to do so, so fair enough imo and hoping that they'll be back next year (without silly finals shenanigans).
    Well if they were fighting honest competitive matches without the meta-gaming bullshit then fair enough really. I do think CCP themselves have to carry some of the responsibility for the fiasco that was AT9 - sure. But the trick is to construct a set of rules where honestly competitive matches are had and there is minimal opportunity for bullshit to ruin the entertainment value for everyone. I tend to think a straight knockout would probably be the best way forward.

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  2. #82
    Amantus's Avatar
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    im a tier 1 poster
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  3. #83
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel View Post
    Anyone else besides me think that the studio format is a bit stale for post-match stuff?

    I don't know if it's the stilted conversation, or whether or not I'm expecting too much from people talking about Eve, or too much from people who aren't professional pundits, but something just doesn't sit right. Unfortunately I also can't think of an alternative - an in-your-face faux-ESPN "let's take a look at a day in the life of pongo" vignette would probably be worse.
    Yeah it's not great and often I found myself getting bored and going on to do something else while it was on and then missing the start of the next match.

    What they could do is mix it up a bit with some exhibition matches etc... on SiSi. Get volunteers to sign up, run a bunch of different matches with different rules to the tourney (3v3 cruisers, 2v2 frigates and so on). I would like to see stuff like this and again it gives more opportunity to discuss actual eve gameplay and demonstrate other setups and why certain things work in pvp etc...

  4. #84
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus View Post
    im a tier 1 poster
    tier 0 IMO m8.

  5. #85

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    haha christ jade

    oh man.

  6. #86
    zergl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Constantine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zergl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Constantine View Post
    On Outbreak/Hydra - sorry but you are literally retarded. They ruined the last tourney with their bullshit and frankly the format is 100x better without them.
    They ruined the final but apart from that they definitely added quality spaceship pewpew to the mix.

    As I said in my earlier post, I wasn't thrilled about CCP's decision to boot both teams from the tourney but they were kinda asking for it with the shit they dumped on CCP with last year's final fuckup and gave them the necessary excuse to do so, so fair enough imo and hoping that they'll be back next year (without silly finals shenanigans).
    Well if they were fighting honest competitive matches without the meta-gaming bullshit then fair enough really. I do think CCP themselves have to carry some of the responsibility for the fiasco that was AT9 - sure. But the trick is to construct a set of rules where honestly competitive matches are had and there is minimal opportunity for bullshit to ruin the entertainment value for everyone. I tend to think a straight knockout would probably be the best way forward.
    Straight Knockout (aka single elimination) is shit for a tournament of this size unless you heavily seed the top teams to be as far apart from each other as possible. Otherwise with a bit of bad luck with the seeding you could have all your top matches happen localized within the subtrees with cripple fights everywhere else until late stages of the tournaments. While unlikely it would be entirely possible that completely irrelevant teams would be able to enter the round of 16 (quite possible) or even the quarter/semi finals (rather unlikely).

    The problem is that better/other tournament systems also explode the number of matches played and with this either the time needed or the amount of staff at hand.

    Double elimination also penalizes you heavily for getting knocked into the loser's bracket early. Apart from having to play a lot more matches you also have to buy more replacement ships which doesn't happen in other sports where it is used.

    Swiss which is sorta used in the pre-qual stage is good, but of very questionable usefulness if you only play two rounds and with as many participants and no concurrency any additional round takes up another whole weekend.

    Groups are good, but as we've seen, given the right groupings and schedules you end up with groups decided after two rounds and an entirely pointless last round.



    Designing a tournament system with the constraints the AT sees is a quagmire of lesser evils and practicality. The two "worst" constraint that you have to plan with is the necessity of having a referee present at any match (because seriously, unlike say in a billiards tournament I would not trust anyone's honoure~ for shit in AT) and subsequently no concurrent matches due to the need for referees and the community wanting streams of the matches.


    If you can come up with a tournament system that would serve AT better than the current one while not unnecessarily violating time and personnel (referee/support GM) constraints, I'm all ears. But I've been spending some thought on the issue and while I have some minor ideas kicking around that I might share when/if I flesh them out I have yet to see an actually viable "perfect" solution.

  7. #87
    Resi's Avatar
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    I think Groups are okay, they just need to be adjusted slightly.

    Maybe there should be no bonus points for wins and rankings should be decided by points, first, then W/L/D record. It would lessen the amount of groups that are already decided before the last group game. But it would make actually winning matches less of a concern and that might also be boring to watch.
    Last edited by Resi; July 23 2012 at 04:21:16 PM.

  8. #88
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    As others have said, the format itself has some issues, and also shows the huge flaws with the game's balance. There were still a bunch of entertaining fights though, mostly when these factors were least involved.

    The blocks of meaningless matches was bad. They need a different bracket system (no, I've not read up to suggest what's better atm). And even with what they chose, could they not have interlaced the meaningful matches wiht the rest to not make a solid 1/2 a day or more not worth watching? Or is it better to only need to tune in for a concise block?

    People complain the arena's too small to kite in, or Logi or ASB should be banned in smaller rounds/shouldn't be limited to 1. Basically: thank fuck it's as is, because the rules are all that's holding back these imbalanced things atm. I'd love to have a more open fitting & flying ruleset (maybe even see an active armour tank augmenting the RR like lolASBs), if they'd fix these issues for all of TQ rather than a handful of artificial fights once a year. Small gang stuff without the need for points, or allowing on-grid warps, or 2-3 non-bonused RR fits is super-handcapped imho.

    The new UI was good and a huge improvement. But GiDiYi's right that people found themselves staring at that rather than the positioning of the ships. Would the view from 2 ships at once (one from each fleet) not be good? Zooming in on the one being shot wasn't that great, better to see what's all around it.

    As for the post-match reviews, can't the commentators in the studio at least have access to the killmails to see the lost fits/accurate shipscan results of all flown, to immediately analyse & clear up wtf was going on if it wasn't clear/had been mis-reported?
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; July 23 2012 at 04:40:57 PM.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe space View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LoKiPP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by joe space View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LoKiPP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by joe space View Post
    (haven't seen the PL v. Darkside match yet, but I'm doubtful seeing it will change my opinion that PL was operating at a tier 2 level and Darkside was still operating at tier 1 level.)
    I know how you came to this conclusion (because you guys gave up gathering intel after being kicked) but its so, so wrong.
    i came to that conclusion by, you know, watching the tourney.
    Exxxactly. Its a shit conclusion and you should feel bad for it. Its horribly talking out of your ass.

    Every setup we brought out in the tournament resulted in most of the teams rushing to copy or counter it. We influenced the meta like no other team.
    no doubt. people did copy PL setups, because PL is PL. but those setups weren't that great. and the piloting was even less great.

    you know, now that i think on it more, maybe you were already tier 2 last year. i think we all just gave your poor performance (A and B teams) the benefit of the doubt because we knew hydra was out-meta'ing you at every step. but maybe you had just already fallen off. vOv.
    Last years tournament we put the least amount of effort into any tournament PL has been in. Again you reiterating your terrible conclusion proves bitterness of getting kicked from this tournament or I got trolled pretty good.
    I'm sure it's frustrating to be sperging about how someone said "no, not doing that yet" - but we've had 7 years to learn to pace ourselves after killing a block. And I dare say -- we've gotten quite good at it.

    Sorry if it doesn't suit the armchair generals who have never committed to anything for more than 2 months, but by now we've learned that we really don't give a shit about what you think v0v.

  10. #90
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    Zergl, 2 irrelevant teams managed to get to the final 16 this year too: FEARLESS. and Test.

  11. #91
    Gesadt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoKiPP View Post

    Last years tournament we put the least amount of effort into any tournament PL has been in.
    whats the excuse this year then

  12. #92
    zergl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    Zergl, 2 irrelevant teams managed to get to the final 16 this year too: FEARLESS. and Test.
    Haha, fair enough.

    Though with "completely irrelevant" I was thinking more along the lines of alliances such as Babylon 5DOTDOT or something similarly useless potentially making it way too far given a sufficiently lopsided tree.

  13. #93

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    CCP just need to add random draws for the post group stage and it would fix a lot of problems.

    On Hydra/0utbreak all we wanted was for the AT team to talk to us. Sure maybe we deserved to be banned after the final last year but we tried our best to have an open dialogue. The main gripe we have is the manner CCP themselves acted in dealing with us. *shrug* whats done is done. I dunno if either team have the interest to try next year, but I'm pretty much not involved in eve anymore.

    And no I didn't watch a single match

    grats to the winner, glad it wasn't PL/DS/Razor

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    But GiDiYi's right that people found themselves staring at that rather than the positioning of the ships. Would the view from 2 ships at once (one from each fleet) not be good? Zooming in on the one being shot wasn't that great, better to see what's all around it.
    I've stared at the stats line basically the whole match, too. But that's because that piece of the screen had the most telling information about what's going on. it did, along with the commentary, a good job for me.

    I can't remember any AT where the actual fight was consistently presented from an informative perspective (like the little zoomed-out view this year). CCP (or whoever flies the camera ships) likes to show off their toys too much. The permanent zooming in and out, switching ships and perspectives might pretend to show some "action". But it did nothing for those interested in actual piloting. That requires a zoomed-out tactical perspective to see how ships are positioned and maneuvered.

  15. #95
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Other than the low bitrate of the stream (seriously CCP, I'm trying to make a party out of the finals; I need something that doesn't look like SDTV on a projector) I'm very happy with how this year's AT went. Veritas's new infobar is such a massive improvement that in retrospect it's a bit hard to understand how we watched ATs before it. And of course the fights themselves were great; it wasn't just avoiding an AT9-style finale, but with 12v12 and the point values this time around there were a ton of great fights (barring the late group stages).
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  16. #96

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    All those icons from the info bar need to be moved next to the ships on the screen. It would be even better if this was a permanent feature for anyone piloting a command ship so they have a better reason to being used over Strat Cruisers.

  17. #97
    Yankunytjatjara's Avatar
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    Are you srs? You'll never manage to click on them at the right time in any battle where movement happens...
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  18. #98
    Daniel L'Siata's Avatar
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    Overall I enjoyed this year, but I do have a lot to say about it.

    New interface is awesome.
    Commentators were pretty terribad again.
    Team composition was very boring this year, but this could just be a reflection of the state of balance in general.
    Very few matches which stood out as overly interesting or special
    The arena could do with being a touch larger, but not too much.
    The bracket system could also be looked at.
    Prizes were inventive, even if of questionable use.
    They should probably institute some kind of restrictions on what alliances can be selected in the random draw, because there have always been ones no good for a show and pretty much just a waste of a slot. Equally, this has lead to some very interesting upsets if memory serves.
    The alliance ads were quite cool and the in-studio segments were much better this year in my opinion.
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  19. #99
    Leviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Constantine View Post
    I do think CCP themselves have to carry some of the responsibility for the fiasco that was AT9 - forward.
    CCP have more to answer for then you are letting on, they reveled and used as a marketing ploy all the meta gaming bs. Hydra and ob did what was expected and had general lols.

    WIthout hydra or ob no AT their is.

  20. #100
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Constantine View Post
    On Outbreak/Hydra - sorry but you are literally retarded. They ruined the last tourney with their bullshit and frankly the format is 100x better without them.
    You like to RP, they like to meta-game. These are both valid ways to play the sandbox. Don't discard people that are good at this game just because they don't play your version of the game.

    I am in no way affiliated to any group at the moment, I like to solo pew (mostly badly), but I can recognize value in people. Even in you. Even in Hydra. Even in Outbreak. Even in motherfrakking Fearlessdot that made a most impressive job this year.


    Stop being so obtuse.
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