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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #13361
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Functional analphabetism

  2. #13362
    evil edna's Avatar
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    This is basically a tradition in gormless american politics at this point, playing something like Born in the USA without listening to more than the chorus

  3. #13363
    Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmoore View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Two-party systems: forcing people to "support" the guy they despise the least since Magna Carta was signed.
    We have MMP here in NZ And in election this month a not insignificant number of right voters voted for the left party. In order to stop the minor green party from having any say in government. 1st time since mmp started here there has been a party with a majority. Note that left party was always going to win this year due to the cult of personality its leader has , not due to its actual achievements. But even so it would normally only get a vote in the 40s.

    Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
    TBF, the NZL Labour government has been not-shit overall.

    It's fucked some things up, it's done some things ok, it's done some things extremely well (but things that either party would probably have done well).

    So they actually deserved to be returned, cult of personality or not. But yes, the fact Jacinda is basically a personable not-shit millennial expounding millennial values certainly helped.

  4. #13364
    Donor Spaztick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmoore View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Two-party systems: forcing people to "support" the guy they despise the least since Magna Carta was signed.
    We have MMP here in NZ And in election this month a not insignificant number of right voters voted for the left party. In order to stop the minor green party from having any say in government. 1st time since mmp started here there has been a party with a majority. Note that left party was always going to win this year due to the cult of personality its leader has , not due to its actual achievements. But even so it would normally only get a vote in the 40s.

    Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
    TBF, the NZL Labour government has been not-shit overall.

    It's fucked some things up, it's done some things ok, it's done some things extremely well (but things that either party would probably have done well).

    So they actually deserved to be returned, cult of personality or not. But yes, the fact Jacinda is basically a personable not-shit millennial expounding millennial values certainly helped.
    Party and the PM had a few knee-jerk reactions to things that got pushbacks from the population (some guy put the christ back in christchurch, lets make everyone turn in their guns!), but overall she has exceeded my expectations. One of the few sane countries left in the West, and I hate to see it become a refugee island when political economical and natural disaster strikes.

  5. #13365
    Kai's Avatar
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    The turn in the guns thing largely played well in Aus: mostly we went "huh, you guys didn't just copy our laws years ago?"

    Overall, the gun laws actually seem relatively appropriate for the NZL context.

  6. #13366
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Ex-Homeland Security Official Outs Himself As 'Anonymous' Anti-Trump Author: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/28/92881...i-trump-author

    Miles Taylor, the former chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security, has revealed himself to be "Anonymous," the author of a New York Times op-ed and book critical of the Trump presidency.

    "To be clear, writing those works was not about eminence (they were published without attribution), not about money (I declined a hefty monetary advance and pledged to donate the bulk of the proceeds), and not about crafting a score-settling 'tell all' (my focus was on the President himself and his character, not denigrating former colleagues)," Taylor wrote in a Medium post.

    "Nevertheless, I made clear I wasn't afraid to criticize the President under my name."

    Taylor, in media interviews as recently as August, denied being "Anonymous."

    Throughout his post, Taylor was explicit about his commitment to the Republican Party and asserted he "wanted this President to succeed" when he joined the administration alongside John Kelly, Trump's first Homeland Security secretary who later became the White House chief of staff.

    But Taylor went on to say, "Too often in times of crisis, I saw Donald Trump prove he is a man without character, and his personal defects have resulted in leadership failures so significant that they can be measured in lost American lives. I witnessed Trump's inability to do his job over the course of two-and-a-half years."

    He said the president's flaws were evident to "everyone" but that most were "were hesitant to speak up for fear of reprisals."
    Trump Has Weaponized Masculinity As President. Here's Why It Matters: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/28/92833...why-it-matters

    Masculinity is also reflected in Trump's economic rhetoric. He was blatant about it this week when he told a crowd in Michigan, "We're getting your husbands back to work." (This is despite the fact that women have disproportionately dropped out of the labor force during the pandemic.)

    But it also has arguably long been present in the president's insistent focus on male-dominated, blue-collar professions.

    In multiple major economic addresses and State of the Union speeches, Trump has highlighted professions like manufacturing, mining and construction, but virtually ignored other working-class, "pink-collar" workers in female-dominated, care-oriented jobs like nursing or health aides. And in his job-creation initiatives, Trump has also tended to focus on those blue-collar areas particularly manufacturing.

    Indeed, he seems to relish the public appearances he gets to do while promoting these industries, as he dons hard hats or sits behind the wheel of a semi.

    It's true that manufacturing can provide stable, high-paying jobs and that COVID-19 showed that U.S. supply chains need improvement. However, a relentless focus on manufacturing overstates that industry's importance in regaining American jobs, while obscuring the reality of America's growing working class of women often, nonwhite women in the service sector.

    Masculinity and political dysfunction

    Aggressive masculine politics can fuel political dysfunction, says Kristin Kobes Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne, a book about white evangelicals and masculinity.

    "Militancy is at the heart of [Trump's] identity, and militancy requires enemies, and so his enemies are both foreign and domestic," she said.

    Beyond picking fights with foreign leaders, Trump does so with domestic politicians and the news media. The clear idea that comes across, Du Mez says, is that "compromise is a sign of weakness."

    "What we lose here is a sense of a larger common good," she said. "And this militant masculine identity really does drive our political polarization."
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard

  7. #13367
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Ex-Homeland Security Official Outs Himself As 'Anonymous' Anti-Trump Author: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/28/92881...i-trump-author

    Miles Taylor, the former chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security, has revealed himself to be "Anonymous," the author of a New York Times op-ed and book critical of the Trump presidency.

    "To be clear, writing those works was not about eminence (they were published without attribution), not about money (I declined a hefty monetary advance and pledged to donate the bulk of the proceeds), and not about crafting a score-settling 'tell all' (my focus was on the President himself and his character, not denigrating former colleagues)," Taylor wrote in a Medium post.

    "Nevertheless, I made clear I wasn't afraid to criticize the President under my name."

    Taylor, in media interviews as recently as August, denied being "Anonymous."

    Throughout his post, Taylor was explicit about his commitment to the Republican Party and asserted he "wanted this President to succeed" when he joined the administration alongside John Kelly, Trump's first Homeland Security secretary who later became the White House chief of staff.

    But Taylor went on to say, "Too often in times of crisis, I saw Donald Trump prove he is a man without character, and his personal defects have resulted in leadership failures so significant that they can be measured in lost American lives. I witnessed Trump's inability to do his job over the course of two-and-a-half years."

    He said the president's flaws were evident to "everyone" but that most were "were hesitant to speak up for fear of reprisals."
    Trump Has Weaponized Masculinity As President. Here's Why It Matters: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/28/92833...why-it-matters

    Masculinity is also reflected in Trump's economic rhetoric. He was blatant about it this week when he told a crowd in Michigan, "We're getting your husbands back to work." (This is despite the fact that women have disproportionately dropped out of the labor force during the pandemic.)

    But it also has arguably long been present in the president's insistent focus on male-dominated, blue-collar professions.

    In multiple major economic addresses and State of the Union speeches, Trump has highlighted professions like manufacturing, mining and construction, but virtually ignored other working-class, "pink-collar" workers in female-dominated, care-oriented jobs like nursing or health aides. And in his job-creation initiatives, Trump has also tended to focus on those blue-collar areas — particularly manufacturing.

    Indeed, he seems to relish the public appearances he gets to do while promoting these industries, as he dons hard hats or sits behind the wheel of a semi.

    It's true that manufacturing can provide stable, high-paying jobs and that COVID-19 showed that U.S. supply chains need improvement. However, a relentless focus on manufacturing overstates that industry's importance in regaining American jobs, while obscuring the reality of America's growing working class of women — often, nonwhite women — in the service sector.

    Masculinity and political dysfunction

    Aggressive masculine politics can fuel political dysfunction, says Kristin Kobes Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne, a book about white evangelicals and masculinity.

    "Militancy is at the heart of [Trump's] identity, and militancy requires enemies, and so his enemies are both foreign and domestic," she said.

    Beyond picking fights with foreign leaders, Trump does so with domestic politicians and the news media. The clear idea that comes across, Du Mez says, is that "compromise is a sign of weakness."

    "What we lose here is a sense of a larger common good," she said. "And this militant masculine identity really does drive our political polarization."
    That's not new or even a Trump thing. The guy in a hardhat is a very cliche political image that's been around forever

    It's true that manufacturing can provide stable, high-paying jobs and that COVID-19 showed that U.S. supply chains need improvement. However, a relentless focus on manufacturing overstates that industry's importance in regaining American jobs, while obscuring the reality of America's growing working class of women — often, nonwhite women — in the service sector.
    The author's being a dumbass lib here. The country needs a major rebuild. It can't continue on as a bunch of walmart parking lots and office buildings

    There's what, like an estimated 4 trillion in spending to be done on infrastructure alone? Probably an equivalent for getting the economy to zero emissions, some of which will have to be in manufacturing of items like solar panels, turbines, and electric vehicles

    Bad article, bad author, bad poster

  8. #13368
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Claiming you want to re-invigorate the manufacturing industry while still allowing imports from China is silly.

    Embargo or GTFO.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard

  9. #13369

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Claiming you want to re-invigorate the manufacturing industry while still allowing imports from China is silly.

    Embargo or GTFO.
    But butte...I dont want a Iphone that will cost $4k....
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  10. #13370

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    That's a nice idea. But you really either are ignorant of the insane systems in place to prevent 3rd parties from success, or are advocating from a position you know cant be won.
    For most of my life I have been a dedicated Third Party voter. I live what I believe(d). Now, FHC would take issue because my third party was the Libertarians (maybe should have been the Greens), but that aside, I am well aware of the challenge of breaking the two party system. I've been trying to do it most of my life.

    I am also aware that it will never happen as long as people are unwilling to risk anything to get there. As long as people believe as you do, that it's "too hard", and "can't be done", you're right....it'll never happen. And we'll keep getting Trump and Biden types.

    True change takes effort. And the two party system won't be broken at first at the National level. Local then State is where this work needs done.

    Parties change. It is slow and laborious, but they do change. Generational and social pressures force change on them. Protests and legal battles do change them.
    Change isn't always for the best. One could argue the Democrats are far less progressive today than in the days of FDR on many issues.

    It's not enough for a small 3rd party to exist of progressive idealists.. i hope for multi party systems, it would give space for alot of benefits.
    I'm a strong believer that more parties = better systems that better reflect the true viewpoints of the electorate. For better and worse.

    If we want true change, the electoral system is where we should truly look. Winner take all, first past the post, etc. are the mechanics that keep the two in power. And those rules CAN and SHOULD be broken at the local and State level first.


  11. #13371

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    That's a nice idea. But you really either are ignorant of the insane systems in place to prevent 3rd parties from success, or are advocating from a position you know cant be won.
    For most of my life I have been a dedicated Third Party voter. I live what I believe(d). Now, FHC would take issue because my third party was the Libertarians (maybe should have been the Greens), but that aside, I am well aware of the challenge of breaking the two party system. I've been trying to do it most of my life.

    I am also aware that it will never happen as long as people are unwilling to risk anything to get there. As long as people believe as you do, that it's "too hard", and "can't be done", you're right....it'll never happen. And we'll keep getting Trump and Biden types.

    True change takes effort. And the two party system won't be broken at first at the National level. Local then State is where this work needs done.

    Parties change. It is slow and laborious, but they do change. Generational and social pressures force change on them. Protests and legal battles do change them.
    Change isn't always for the best. One could argue the Democrats are far less progressive today than in the days of FDR on many issues.

    It's not enough for a small 3rd party to exist of progressive idealists.. i hope for multi party systems, it would give space for alot of benefits.
    I'm a strong believer that more parties = better systems that better reflect the true viewpoints of the electorate. For better and worse.

    If we want true change, the electoral system is where we should truly look. Winner take all, first past the post, etc. are the mechanics that keep the two in power. And those rules CAN and SHOULD be broken at the local and State level first.
    Unfortunately, you have a constitution, which conservatives have weaponized. No change is possible.

  12. #13372
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    If conservatives block change, reduce conservative numbers by making it something you really have to want to be, to live with all the unemployment, being a know racist and stone throwing from the rest of society.

    Bring back public stockades and put conservatives in them.
    meh

  13. #13373
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    You tried that with trailer parks instead of building a society which values education and social mobility. That just gave the conservatives an even larger base ready to accept fascism while being exploited.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  14. #13374
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You tried that with trailer parks instead of building a society which values education and social mobility. That just gave the conservatives an even larger base ready to accept fascism while being exploited.
    They don't have an outsize base.

    They've cheated and destroyed the system so their tiny minority rules.

    I've seen what happens when a minority rules unfairly over a majority. The end result isn't pretty.
    meh

  15. #13375

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You tried that with trailer parks instead of building a society which values education and social mobility. That just gave the conservatives an even larger base ready to accept fascism while being exploited.
    They don't have an outsize base.

    They've cheated and destroyed the system so their tiny minority rules.

    I've seen what happens when a minority rules unfairly over a majority. The end result isn't pretty.
    The idiotic redneck racists are more a symptom of the problem. The conservatives that have the US in a deathlock are the ones that care about low taxes, light regulation and maybe abortion as a far distant third.

  16. #13376
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You tried that with trailer parks instead of building a society which values education and social mobility. That just gave the conservatives an even larger base ready to accept fascism while being exploited.
    They don't have an outsize base.

    They've cheated and destroyed the system so their tiny minority rules.

    I've seen what happens when a minority rules unfairly over a majority. The end result isn't pretty.
    Its like you think the "idiot trash human scum" are the ones benefitting and engineering the whole thing, not the wealthy intelligent monsters. Really erich, no one has any idea what the fuck you want because all you do no matter the situation is yell "the republicans are evil". While I think the party is trash and supporting it is a rascist idiotic thing to do, your insistence on not ever having much else to say, and your support for the capitalist bullshit that aids our broken systems is pretty dumb too.

  17. #13377
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    That's a nice idea. But you really either are ignorant of the insane systems in place to prevent 3rd parties from success, or are advocating from a position you know cant be won.
    For most of my life I have been a dedicated Third Party voter. I live what I believe(d). Now, FHC would take issue because my third party was the Libertarians (maybe should have been the Greens), but that aside, I am well aware of the challenge of breaking the two party system. I've been trying to do it most of my life.

    I am also aware that it will never happen as long as people are unwilling to risk anything to get there. As long as people believe as you do, that it's "too hard", and "can't be done", you're right....it'll never happen. And we'll keep getting Trump and Biden types.

    True change takes effort. And the two party system won't be broken at first at the National level. Local then State is where this work needs done.

    Parties change. It is slow and laborious, but they do change. Generational and social pressures force change on them. Protests and legal battles do change them.
    Change isn't always for the best. One could argue the Democrats are far less progressive today than in the days of FDR on many issues.

    It's not enough for a small 3rd party to exist of progressive idealists.. i hope for multi party systems, it would give space for alot of benefits.
    I'm a strong believer that more parties = better systems that better reflect the true viewpoints of the electorate. For better and worse.

    If we want true change, the electoral system is where we should truly look. Winner take all, first past the post, etc. are the mechanics that keep the two in power. And those rules CAN and SHOULD be broken at the local and State level first.
    Yeah I just basically said the same thing, but with the idea I will dare for third parties to matter once the one with a minority isn't engineering a complete takeover of government.

    I'm of the progressives, I know the majority doesn't follow my preferences, but I think a separate party would benefit, hopefully we see more states outside of Maine take up ranked choice and a few more large states sign the Electoral College Pact

  18. #13378

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    That's a nice idea. But you really either are ignorant of the insane systems in place to prevent 3rd parties from success, or are advocating from a position you know cant be won.
    For most of my life I have been a dedicated Third Party voter. I live what I believe(d). Now, FHC would take issue because my third party was the Libertarians (maybe should have been the Greens), but that aside, I am well aware of the challenge of breaking the two party system. I've been trying to do it most of my life.

    I am also aware that it will never happen as long as people are unwilling to risk anything to get there. As long as people believe as you do, that it's "too hard", and "can't be done", you're right....it'll never happen. And we'll keep getting Trump and Biden types.

    True change takes effort. And the two party system won't be broken at first at the National level. Local then State is where this work needs done.

    Parties change. It is slow and laborious, but they do change. Generational and social pressures force change on them. Protests and legal battles do change them.
    Change isn't always for the best. One could argue the Democrats are far less progressive today than in the days of FDR on many issues.

    It's not enough for a small 3rd party to exist of progressive idealists.. i hope for multi party systems, it would give space for alot of benefits.
    I'm a strong believer that more parties = better systems that better reflect the true viewpoints of the electorate. For better and worse.

    If we want true change, the electoral system is where we should truly look. Winner take all, first past the post, etc. are the mechanics that keep the two in power. And those rules CAN and SHOULD be broken at the local and State level first.
    Yeah I just basically said the same thing, but with the idea I will dare for third parties to matter once the one with a minority isn't engineering a complete takeover of government.

    I'm of the progressives, I know the majority doesn't follow my preferences, but I think a separate party would benefit, hopefully we see more states outside of Maine take up ranked choice and a few more large states sign the Electoral College Pact
    Local > State > Federal

    Not enough people understand that is the route you must go, and the route with the most day to day impact. Trying to start a 3rd party movement with only/prrimarily Federal efforts is a laughable waste of everyone's time.

    You want change, make it locally first and foremost, then at the state level (especially for a Dillon rule State).

    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    Unfortunately, you have a constitution, which conservatives have weaponized. No change is possible.
    Oh. Well shit, we should all just give up then. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
    Last edited by Alistair; October 29 2020 at 05:48:31 PM.


  19. #13379
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You tried that with trailer parks instead of building a society which values education and social mobility. That just gave the conservatives an even larger base ready to accept fascism while being exploited.
    They don't have an outsize base.

    They've cheated and destroyed the system so their tiny minority rules.

    I've seen what happens when a minority rules unfairly over a majority. The end result isn't pretty.
    Its like you think the "idiot trash human scum" are the ones benefitting and engineering the whole thing, not the wealthy intelligent monsters. Really erich, no one has any idea what the fuck you want because all you do no matter the situation is yell "the republicans are evil". While I think the party is trash and supporting it is a rascist idiotic thing to do, your insistence on not ever having much else to say, and your support for the capitalist bullshit that aids our broken systems is pretty dumb too.
    Why should we hide the truth anymore.
    meh

  20. #13380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    Unfortunately, you have a constitution, which conservatives have weaponized. No change is possible.
    Oh. Well shit, we should all just give up then. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
    It's realism, not defeatism. The UK had a political party that sold its soul for a referendum on voting reform (LibDems). They lost the referendum by a mile and the Conservatives fucked the country wearing the LibDems as a condom. If you want to get rid of first past the post, you need to build. For example:
    Step 1: Don't reelect Trump
    Step 2: Pack the supreme court
    Step 3: Reform the electoral college
    Step 4: Ban gerrymandering
    ...
    Step 347: Get rid of first past the post

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