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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #16141
    Liare's Avatar
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    axing him under the 25th means the political class and the upper rungs of government can wash their hands of the man risk free, after all, the stress of losing the office clearly got to him and in the heat of the moment, he decided to incite a insurrection.

    it would a complete fucking lie of course, but it would paper over the underlying issues and keep the gravy train rolling for a while yet.

    impeachment is still rolling around the floor of congress, with only marginal public defections from the republicans and signs pointing at them being internally divided over the issue, while it will probably go trough whenever Nancy decides to actually put it forward (okay, if she decides to put it forward) it could also serve as a catalyst that fractures the republican party and greatly mobilize their already radicalized base, leading to the birth of a full on american fascist party with significant support.

    this might look like a boon, hey the republicans are dead, perpetual democrat rule while the fascists and conservatives fight over the same voters. but it won't be as it would unleash the forces and movement the american party system serves to bottle up and keep away from the mainstream. and fascism doesn't play by the rules of established democracy, their objective is to outright subvert it. so this means there is suddenly a enormous dose of instability added to already rickety system.

    all of this assumes that these fuckers don't succeed in staging a coup in the next three months of course. having tried and failed once, with fairly mild repercussions and feeble resistance, the usual course of action is to give it another go.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  2. #16142
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    axing him under the 25th means the political class and the upper rungs of government can wash their hands of the man risk free, after all, the stress of losing the office clearly got to him and in the heat of the moment, he decided to incite a insurrection.

    it would a complete fucking lie of course, but it would paper over the underlying issues and keep the gravy train rolling for a while yet.

    impeachment is still rolling around the floor of congress, with only marginal public defections from the republicans and signs pointing at them being internally divided over the issue, while it will probably go trough whenever Nancy decides to actually put it forward (okay, if she decides to put it forward) it could also serve as a catalyst that fractures the republican party and greatly mobilize their already radicalized base, leading to the birth of a full on american fascist party with significant support.

    this might look like a boon, hey the republicans are dead, perpetual democrat rule while the fascists and conservatives fight over the same voters. but it won't be as it would unleash the forces and movement the american party system serves to bottle up and keep away from the mainstream. and fascism doesn't play by the rules of established democracy, their objective is to outright subvert it. so this means there is suddenly a enormous dose of instability added to already rickety system.

    all of this assumes that these fuckers don't succeed in staging a coup in the next three months of course. having tried and failed once, with fairly mild repercussions and feeble resistance, the usual course of action is to give it another go.
    Not that they won't try again, but I think there's reported increases in personnel in the capital, and state capitals have increased police presensce, the public overwhelmingly doesn't like what happened, so they are free to make a big show of it all. There are a lot of police I do not trust with anything, but they are also tribal, and they are probably as split on it as the rest of the right is. Now if on duty police officers fighting each other during attempted mobs happens, that's a spiral that'd be pretty bad, but at least people would see police for what they are.

    Also what's the alternative, don't impeach him and do fuck all? If you don't do things because you are afraid it will make fascists angry, that's a pretty terrible stance that has never won anything or even made centrists feel energized to fight them. They are a minority, and while some people might be so dumb as to believe they can actually take over with a few thousand people, once armed guard units are there, those miltia dudes are largely not military, and cohesion in a fight would break down instantly. Even Proud Boys has it's cliques, let alone all the rest of the little warlords they wish to be.

    I don't usually say this, but I do think the government has learned a lesson. One that yes, will be used against leftists, but already has been for so long that it's really more that they shouldn't trust the far right either, at least not when they aren't helping them by default anymore.

  3. #16143
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerWish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Nope, strangely I agree with Pence on this one, while I loathe his whole being.

    25th is when the President is ill, under surgery or Alzheimer got the better of him.
    If the president commits crimes like 6th Jan, that what the Impeachment is for.

    Think about it a bit differently, while Pence using the 25th would convenient and risk free for the next 6-7 days, would it really help on the long term?
    No, this is the time when Congress & the Senate has to write the history book and show the Dems while in majority both in Congress & the Senate can make it happen.

    In the meantime where are the investigations & hearings, why the National Guard had to be sent in on an out of chain of command request?
    There are apparently hundreds of investigations. The arrests are piling up, just the other day one of the men arrested killed himself. a Georgia resident. I have no idea why they were so dumb as to not realize one of the most surveilled places in the world was where they had arrived, so any act at all would involve punishment unless they magically took over and formed a new government and all the nation and world accepted them as rightful governors. The NG issue is insane, and really should be used as evidence as to how wild the day was. The more I learn about it the scale of failures makes it seem like some people def didn't act on purpose, while others were so dumb as to not think about the consequences to the image of a nation they'd still want to preserve in some form. Investigations done right take time, and I am sure not all of them will be made public, but what's already come out is staggeringly problematic. It's only going to get worse as time goes on.

  4. #16144
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    [QUOTE=Jack Coutu;1924105]
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Not that they won't try again, but I think there's reported increases in personnel in the capital, and state capitals have increased police presensce, the public overwhelmingly doesn't like what happened, so they are free to make a big show of it all. There are a lot of police I do not trust with anything, but they are also tribal, and they are probably as split on it as the rest of the right is. Now if on duty police officers fighting each other during attempted mobs happens, that's a spiral that'd be pretty bad, but at least people would see police for what they are.

    Also what's the alternative, don't impeach him and do fuck all? If you don't do things because you are afraid it will make fascists angry, that's a pretty terrible stance that has never won anything or even made centrists feel energized to fight them. They are a minority, and while some people might be so dumb as to believe they can actually take over with a few thousand people, once armed guard units are there, those miltia dudes are largely not military, and cohesion in a fight would break down instantly. Even Proud Boys has it's cliques, let alone all the rest of the little warlords they wish to be.

    I don't usually say this, but I do think the government has learned a lesson. One that yes, will be used against leftists, but already has been for so long that it's really more that they shouldn't trust the far right either, at least not when they aren't helping them by default anymore.
    the correct response, being congress's leadership mobilizing the nearest national guard and outright deposing him on the spot, sailed a week ago. the actual rulebook went out the window the second that crowd stormed congress.

    im not arguing against doing anything, i am arguing that the response is too limp wristed and it's piling on the danger of the situation, the proverbial fuze is lit and you're all sitting on the powderkeg. this incessant obsession with "process and norms" is making the legislative branch, as a institution look weak, for comparison the impeachment of Johnson over a significantly less volatile issue was started in three days after the triggering event, the removal of Stanton.

    the government hasn't learned jack shit, the fact it got as far as it did means that it's heavily if not completely compromised as a institution. there is supposed to be checks and balances in place to prevent say, leaving congressional security dangerously undermanned in the face of mass protest. plugging the leaky holes might prevent a repeat of precisely that scenario, but there ain't nobody dumb enough to try the same stunt twice*.

    *yes, yes there is, but usually after a fundamental change of circumstances.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  5. #16145
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    [QUOTE=Liare;1924109]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Not that they won't try again, but I think there's reported increases in personnel in the capital, and state capitals have increased police presensce, the public overwhelmingly doesn't like what happened, so they are free to make a big show of it all. There are a lot of police I do not trust with anything, but they are also tribal, and they are probably as split on it as the rest of the right is. Now if on duty police officers fighting each other during attempted mobs happens, that's a spiral that'd be pretty bad, but at least people would see police for what they are.

    Also what's the alternative, don't impeach him and do fuck all? If you don't do things because you are afraid it will make fascists angry, that's a pretty terrible stance that has never won anything or even made centrists feel energized to fight them. They are a minority, and while some people might be so dumb as to believe they can actually take over with a few thousand people, once armed guard units are there, those miltia dudes are largely not military, and cohesion in a fight would break down instantly. Even Proud Boys has it's cliques, let alone all the rest of the little warlords they wish to be.

    I don't usually say this, but I do think the government has learned a lesson. One that yes, will be used against leftists, but already has been for so long that it's really more that they shouldn't trust the far right either, at least not when they aren't helping them by default anymore.
    the correct response, being congress's leadership mobilizing the nearest national guard and outright deposing him on the spot, sailed a week ago. the actual rulebook went out the window the second that crowd stormed congress.

    im not arguing against doing anything, i am arguing that the response is too limp wristed and it's piling on the danger of the situation, the proverbial fuze is lit and you're all sitting on the powderkeg. this incessant obsession with "process and norms" is making the legislative branch, as a institution look weak, for comparison the impeachment of Johnson over a significantly less volatile issue was started in three days after the triggering event, the removal of Stanton.

    the government hasn't learned jack shit, the fact it got as far as it did means that it's heavily if not completely compromised as a institution. there is supposed to be checks and balances in place to prevent say, leaving congressional security dangerously undermanned in the face of mass protest. plugging the leaky holes might prevent a repeat of precisely that scenario, but there ain't nobody dumb enough to try the same stunt twice*.

    *yes, yes there is, but usually after a fundamental change of circumstances.
    Yeah, I think you are forgetting how stubbornly dumb all parties are here. Or hoping for better than complete inepitude. They'd try it again in exactly the same way, I just think they probably won't suceed twice, but even that's not 100% sure.

    It's all not good, and I agree they should of done more, but to be honest the fact is the House is just the little brother, and Republicans still control the Senate, and that turtle man ain't doing anything like deposing his president until it benefits him. The Republicans are indeed signing a death warrant for themselves most likely, but maybe in the long run they made sure to take it all down if they couldn't have it. The issue with the Guard is it can't be used to just do a border crossing, I mean a Republican governor tried sending them and was denied, so it shows you how the limits are there, which normally would be good, doesn't help when the authority on using them in federal situations is the federal authority encouraging insurrection.
    Last edited by Jack Coutu; January 13 2021 at 10:00:21 AM.

  6. #16146
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  7. #16147
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    Oh man, another suicide in arrest, who saw that coming...Or in reality few less liked members of GOP will be sacrificed as scapegoats together with some white trash painted nazi and then back to business as usual. As has been foretold within this very thread by yours truly.
    Last edited by rufuske; January 13 2021 at 01:05:43 PM.

  8. #16148

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    Local Finnish press is reporting that companies are quickly pulling that sweet corruption oh I mean lobbying money from the idiots that voted against certifying the election results.

  9. #16149

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  10. #16150
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  11. #16151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    yfw eric was right all along calling republicans traitors

  12. #16152
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Oh man, another suicide in arrest, who saw that coming...Or in reality few less liked members of GOP will be sacrificed as scapegoats together with some white trash painted nazi and then back to business as usual. As has been foretold within this very thread by yours truly.
    This might be a stupid question but why are they committing suicide? The charges that have been floating around don't seem that severe to me, or am I mistaken?

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  13. #16153
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    Apparently prosecutors are considering sedition charges which carries potential sentencing up 20 years in federal prison.


    Or maybe the ones committing suicide had contact with Republican law makers prior to the event...
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  14. #16154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Apparently prosecutors are considering sedition charges which carries potential sentencing up 20 years in federal prison.


    Or maybe the ones committing suicide had contact with Republican law makers prior to the event...
    Ah, shit. Well, we'll see. Trump (and the complicit R) really fucked these people hard.

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  15. #16155

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    <scuffed tweet link of shame, walrus fixed it below>

    Man gets fucked by the very same structure he worked his hardest to support, is surprised that consequences exist. Tiniest violin plays as he gets roasted on social media.
    Last edited by Isyel; January 13 2021 at 03:22:38 PM.

  16. #16156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    FYP
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
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    walrus isnt a bad poster.
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    also i like walrus.
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  17. #16157
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    "Oh No. Being an Anti-American traitor has consequences"

    My heart bleeds lumpy, shark infested custard for them. Good riddance to shit people.
    meh

  18. #16158
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    Good metaphor tbh

  19. #16159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Oh man, another suicide in arrest, who saw that coming...Or in reality few less liked members of GOP will be sacrificed as scapegoats together with some white trash painted nazi and then back to business as usual. As has been foretold within this very thread by yours truly.
    This might be a stupid question but why are they committing suicide? The charges that have been floating around don't seem that severe to me, or am I mistaken?
    It's not hard to figure out. The American "justice" system is a death sentence for any comfortable middle-class life and these people are completely unprepared for it. They're used to being the ones in the peanut gallery hooting as another person gets destroyed
    Last edited by mewninn; January 13 2021 at 04:36:22 PM.

  20. #16160
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerWish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Nope, strangely I agree with Pence on this one, while I loathe his whole being.

    25th is when the President is ill, under surgery or Alzheimer got the better of him.
    If the president commits crimes like 6th Jan, that what the Impeachment is for.

    Think about it a bit differently, while Pence using the 25th would convenient and risk free for the next 6-7 days, would it really help on the long term?
    No, this is the time when Congress & the Senate has to write the history book and show the Dems while in majority both in Congress & the Senate can make it happen.

    In the meantime where are the investigations & hearings, why the National Guard had to be sent in on an out of chain of command request?
    I sort of do too. I think the 25th should be for medical incapacity or insanity, not punishment or political statement. That's literally what impeachment is for.

    All of the people disagreeing with you are really just saying "who cares what the purpose of the 25th is, lets use whatever means we can to get rid of him, constitutional, legal or not, because he deserves it"

    Impeachment is the right route to that. If the Senate REALLY wanted to impeach him (it doesnt, not even the dems want to right now), it could do so very quickly. They want to delay it into Biden's presidency for political reasons, which is fair enough, but it rather proves the situation isnt actually urgent

    You dont protect your system of democracy by breaking its most important rules when you feel the ends justify the means.
    Last edited by Lallante; January 13 2021 at 07:19:10 PM.

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