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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #15821
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    So like all of you I was finding all of this kinda exciting and funny... Until I stumbled across this sub

    https://www.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/top?t=month

    Some of these stories are kinda nuts. Conspiracy thinking seems to be like a virus or perhaps a transmittal addiction. The human cost is insanely high. Read a few of the stories on that sub and feel slightly humbled and scared...

    The human mind is so weird. Most of us are are not resilient to psychological hacking at all. And that's what this is; mental malware.

    While Trump has lost, the spread of this shit is winning. Where will we end up?

    Feeling pretty concerned about all this

  2. #15822

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    So like all of you I was finding all of this kinda exciting and funny... Until I stumbled across this sub
    You were just repeatedly told this is how things were going and kept dismissing it like a lot of people. It's really not remotely exciting or funny.

    On similar topic:

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021...a-fascist.html

    “This is confirmation of so much that everyone has said for years now — things that a lot of us thought were hyperbolic. We’d say, ‘Trump’s not a fascist,’ or ‘He’s not a wannabe dictator.’ Now, it’s like, ‘Well, what do you even say in response to that now?’”
    I don't think I have a surprised Pikachu face big enough.
    Last edited by Isyel; January 9 2021 at 09:24:07 AM.

  3. #15823
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    You are totally missing my point. It's not Trumpism that I'm worried about. It's Q. Trump will be irrelevant in a couple of years. Q will evolve into something even more virulant

    Quote me being dismissive of the dangers of conspiracy thinking. I've always been on the right side of that one. I just didn't really appreciate the scale and scope of the infection until now

  4. #15824
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    The individual stories are incredibly sad. You have to find the ridiculousness of the movement and the way liberal media has failed to understand and analyse it funny otherwise you just end up being furious at people who continually belittle and condescend those who are proved right time after time.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  5. #15825
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    The tone-deafness of the media is astounding, as is its bias.

  6. #15826

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    You are totally missing my point. It's not Trumpism that I'm worried about. It's Q. Trump will be irrelevant in a couple of years. Q will evolve into something even more virulant

    Quote me being dismissive of the dangers of conspiracy thinking. I've always been on the right side of that one. I just didn't really appreciate the scale and scope of the infection until now
    It's not about Trumpism though, or Q. It's about the 'ideals' that bring shit like this into relevance in the first place.

    FWIW I'm glad people are realizing it, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The individual stories are incredibly sad. You have to find the ridiculousness of the movement and the way liberal media has failed to understand and analyse it funny otherwise you just end up being furious at people who continually belittle and condescend those who are proved right time after time.
    It is ridiculus and it should absolutely be made fun of where the endless reserves of black humor reside but I still struggle to see what's funny in the movement itself, it's fucking dreadful.

  7. #15827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The individual stories are incredibly sad. You have to find the ridiculousness of the movement and the way liberal media has failed to understand and analyse it funny otherwise you just end up being furious at people who continually belittle and condescend those who are proved right time after time.
    The bit that I find most nuts and scary from those stories is it generally ISNT just right wingers who already watch fox slowly getting more deranged, it's more like 'totally normal liberal dad of 3' who watches a dodgy YouTube video and BAM down the rabbit hole he goes, 3 months later totally unrecognisable to his wife and kids.

    All the more reason to stop throwing around lazy, useless dismissals like 'they are all fascists'. These are normal people who have been corrupted, at a breakneck speed, by a mental virus. 6 months earlier they were no more fascist than any of the rest of us. By dismissing them as fascists or (per erich) deserving of death etc. we are making what is obviously a collective mental health issue into a black and white moral judgement.

    The correct response is empathy and concern (and desperately looking for a cure), not condemnation. On this one I'll admit I've been wrong in the past (though I've always objected to lazily throwing around terms like Nazi. There are Nazis in the Trump movement (lots in fact), but calling all Trumpist nazis is incredibly unhelpful, factually wrong and deeply counterproductive - these people are often cult victims not skinheads).
    Last edited by Lallante; January 9 2021 at 11:09:37 AM.

  8. #15828
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    They're an output of liberal inability to understand and stop fascism.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  9. #15829

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    Not like the facisms hasn't been proven to be nice and virulent in the past anyway. Being in and knowing that all your hardship is because of Them and that violently hating Them is ok and acceptable and shared just gives you that warm and fuzzy feeling like no other.

  10. #15830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    They're an output of liberal inability to understand and stop fascism.

    That is just wrong and doesnt in any way adequately address the phenomena. How on earth does that explain the 'liberal dad/mum watches you tube videos and loses his/her mind in a matter of weeks' phenomena that subreddit documents?

    Fascists are harnessing this phenomenon to achieve their goals, not the other way around. The phenomenon exists independently and needs to be addressed directly, not just by condemning the people exploiting it.

    I think you feel this way because up until a decade ago the insane conspiracy theory world was dominated by the far left, so casting this as a fascist problem allows you to distance yourself from it.

    It's clear the conspiracy-thinking mindworm is not inherently a creature of the left or right politically. Pretending it is is sticking your head in the sand.
    Last edited by Lallante; January 9 2021 at 11:30:54 AM.

  11. #15831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The individual stories are incredibly sad. You have to find the ridiculousness of the movement and the way liberal media has failed to understand and analyse it funny otherwise you just end up being furious at people who continually belittle and condescend those who are proved right time after time.
    The bit that I find most nuts and scary from those stories is it generally ISNT just right wingers who already watch fox slowly getting more deranged, it's more like 'totally normal liberal dad of 3' who watches a dodgy YouTube video and BAM down the rabbit hole he goes, 3 months later totally unrecognisable to his wife and kids.

    All the more reason to stop throwing around lazy, useless dismissals like 'they are all fascists'. These are normal people who have been corrupted, at a breakneck speed, by a mental virus. 6 months earlier they were no more fascist than any of the rest of us. By dismissing them as fascists or (per erich) deserving of death etc. we are making what is obviously a collective mental health issue into a black and white moral judgement.

    The correct response is empathy and concern (and desperately looking for a cure), not condemnation. On this one I'll admit I've been wrong in the past (though I've always objected to lazily throwing around terms like Nazi. There are Nazis in the Trump movement (lots in fact), but calling all Trumpist nazis is incredibly unhelpful, factually wrong and deeply counterproductive - these people are often cult victims not skinheads).
    I have no pity or understanding for the dad you described. As i stated early when key figures in a party/movement/cult whatever are Nazis, what are the guys following them and this is not a rhetoric question. The answer is easy they are Nazis too, period.

    This is just how the 3rd Reich in Germany started and afterwards it was like
    "We just followed orders"
    "We didn't know anything"
    "We weren't in the NSDAP, we weren't Nazis"

    and the list goes on and on, just excuses.

  12. #15832
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    This is such fucking lazy thinking. Honestly that point of view contributes to the rise of these movements. You think moral condemnation is HELPFUL in preventing the rise of extremism? It's the exact fucking opposite - it drives these people into their reinforcing bubbles and allows them to fully dismiss everything you or anyone else fully sane has to say or any intervention you attempt to mount. Read some fucking history - look at the details around the rise of Hitler. Only a fucking idiot would attribute it to some inherent (and irredeemable) moral failing in 75% of German people. It was a relatively small evil group harnessing 'bugs' in the human operating system. Yes, the auschwitz guards and SS etc are the worst of the people, but the average party member was just a dupe, falling for mental hacking.

    Claiming otherwise is incredibly stupid - effectively you are left believing people are just irredeemably good or bad, in which case why even try to change anything as surely its all inevitable?

    These thought systems are not conventional political beliefs. It's a mental virus. It needs treatment not persuasion or even worse condemnation.

    Not to say there arent people in the movement who deserve nothing but condemnation, actual nazis etc, but these are a minority compared to the vast majority who, while deserving of condemnation morally for their actions/support, are also victims who could have been redeemed had we taken the right steps to deprogram them from the mental virus.
    Last edited by Lallante; January 9 2021 at 11:44:06 AM.

  13. #15833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    This is such fucking lazy thinking. Honestly that point of view contributes to the rise of these movements.
    No it is not, it is was history is teaching us. Germany has a common word for such people "Mitläufer" (the dictionaries translation as "mere supporter" isn't quite fitting. It means willfully ignoring the bad stuff) and it has a very negative connotation. Being a "Mitläufer" does not absolve you from anything, you are still a Nazi.

  14. #15834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    They're an output of liberal inability to understand and stop fascism.

    That is just wrong and doesnt in any way adequately address the phenomena. How on earth does that explain the 'liberal dad/mum watches you tube videos and loses his/her mind in a matter of weeks' phenomena that subreddit documents?

    Fascists are harnessing this phenomenon to achieve their goals, not the other way around. The phenomenon exists independently and needs to be addressed directly, not just by condemning the people exploiting it.

    I think you feel this way because up until a decade ago the insane conspiracy theory world was dominated by the far left, so casting this as a fascist problem allows you to distance yourself from it.

    It's clear the conspiracy-thinking mindworm is not inherently a creature of the left or right politically. Pretending it is is sticking your head in the sand.
    What do you think is the dominant political ideology of the platforms where this misinformation spreads? I'll give you a clue, YouTube isn't fascist.

    I feel this way because socialists have described this exact phenomenon endlessly over the past century. Some of Orwells greatest writings were his essays on this exact subject, not his novels.

    I'm not even sure why you mention the far left except as a bizarre deflection to avoid any analysis of the current liberal media environment. You are correct that the conspiracy theory mindworm is not left or right, it exists exactly in the ideological void of capitalist liberalism and in the reactionary liberal response which manifests itself as divisive 'cancel culture' and shallow social observations instead of material analysis.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  15. #15835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    This is such fucking lazy thinking. Honestly that point of view contributes to the rise of these movements.
    No it is not, it is was history is teaching us. Germany has a common word for such people "Mitläufer" (the dictionaries translation as "mere supporter" isn't quite fitting. It means willfully ignoring the bad stuff) and it has a very negative connotation. Being a "Mitläufer" does not absolve you from anything, you are still a Nazi.
    I think you are getting so hung up on blame that you've lost sight of how to achieve prevention. My argument has NOTHING to do with blame. Of course 'mere supporters' are partly to blame for the actions of the regime they support and, after the overthrow of something like nazism, DESERVE condemnation. That's totally missing the point.

    It's an indidious trap to think this indicates that condemning those people IN ADVANCE is the way to PREVENT the rise of the movement. I'm sure it makes you feel good/superior to throw around those judgements but it WONT PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM.

  16. #15836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    They're an output of liberal inability to understand and stop fascism.

    That is just wrong and doesnt in any way adequately address the phenomena. How on earth does that explain the 'liberal dad/mum watches you tube videos and loses his/her mind in a matter of weeks' phenomena that subreddit documents?

    Fascists are harnessing this phenomenon to achieve their goals, not the other way around. The phenomenon exists independently and needs to be addressed directly, not just by condemning the people exploiting it.

    I think you feel this way because up until a decade ago the insane conspiracy theory world was dominated by the far left, so casting this as a fascist problem allows you to distance yourself from it.

    It's clear the conspiracy-thinking mindworm is not inherently a creature of the left or right politically. Pretending it is is sticking your head in the sand.
    What do you think is the dominant political ideology of the platforms where this misinformation spreads? I'll give you a clue, YouTube isn't fascist.

    I feel this way because socialists have described this exact phenomenon endlessly over the past century. Some of Orwells greatest writings were his essays on this exact subject, not his novels.

    I'm not even sure why you mention the far left except as a bizarre deflection to avoid any analysis of the current liberal media environment. You are correct that the conspiracy theory mindworm is not left or right, it exists exactly in the ideological void of capitalist liberalism and in the reactionary liberal response which manifests itself as divisive 'cancel culture' and shallow social observations instead of material analysis.
    I have no idea what you are trying to say here. You think anti-capitalists are immune from or less susceptible to conspiracy thinking? Capitalism or the absence of it, ideology or the absence of it, have NOTHING to do with susceptibility to conspiracy thinking. Many of the Qpeople come from extremely strong ideological backgrounds, e.g. religious ones. Others are athiests. Some were GOP supporters, but the subreddit I posted also documents many Bernie Sanders supporters journeys to Q. Background ideology doesn't seem to matter.

    What does any of this have to do with capitalism? Literally nothing. You think conspiracies wouldnt thrive in a socialist utopia? You are wrong. It's a completely different kind of beast, independent of political ideology, albeit this current strain has been harnessed by fascist ideologues.

  17. #15837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    This is such fucking lazy thinking. Honestly that point of view contributes to the rise of these movements.
    No it is not, it is was history is teaching us. Germany has a common word for such people "Mitläufer" (the dictionaries translation as "mere supporter" isn't quite fitting. It means willfully ignoring the bad stuff) and it has a very negative connotation. Being a "Mitläufer" does not absolve you from anything, you are still a Nazi.
    I think you are getting so hung up on blame that you've lost sight of how to achieve prevention. My argument has NOTHING to do with blame. Of course 'mere supporters' are partly to blame for the actions of the regime they support and, after the overthrow of something like nazism, DESERVE condemnation. That's totally missing the point.

    It's an indidious trap to think this indicates that condemning those people IN ADVANCE is the way to PREVENT the rise of the movement. I'm sure it makes you feel good/superior to throw around those judgements but it WONT PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM.
    Ok, how to "PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM", by being nice and finding excuses for such guys? No, that will just enable them. If someone is going down that rabbit hole, this isn't by "accident", he had a specific racist, anti social mindset before.

  18. #15838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    This is such fucking lazy thinking. Honestly that point of view contributes to the rise of these movements.
    No it is not, it is was history is teaching us. Germany has a common word for such people "Mitläufer" (the dictionaries translation as "mere supporter" isn't quite fitting. It means willfully ignoring the bad stuff) and it has a very negative connotation. Being a "Mitläufer" does not absolve you from anything, you are still a Nazi.
    I think you are getting so hung up on blame that you've lost sight of how to achieve prevention. My argument has NOTHING to do with blame. Of course 'mere supporters' are partly to blame for the actions of the regime they support and, after the overthrow of something like nazism, DESERVE condemnation. That's totally missing the point.

    It's an indidious trap to think this indicates that condemning those people IN ADVANCE is the way to PREVENT the rise of the movement. I'm sure it makes you feel good/superior to throw around those judgements but it WONT PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM.
    Ok, how to "PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM", by being nice and finding excuses for such guys? No, that will just enable them. If someone is going down that rabbit hole, this isn't by "accident", he had a specific racist, anti social mindset before.
    i'm with u. we should shun them from society, actively shout at them at every opportunity, and possibly just kill them all. All 75 million of them. That's sure to be the best solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Also that didn't sound like abloo bloo to me, PM me and we can agree on a meeting spot and settle this with queensberry rules, that's a serious offer btw. I've been a member of this community since 2005 and i've never met a more toxic individual.

  19. #15839
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    No, by treating it as the mental health crisis it so clearly is. We need a shitload of research into deprogramming/treating these people. We need an answer to the question "how do you bring someone back to reality from this mindset?"

    What's YOUR answer to that question? If it's "we can't, write them off" then we might as well all just give up because this mindvirus has an R number a lot higher than 1.

    . If someone is going down that rabbit hole, this isn't by "accident", he had a specific racist, anti social mindset before.
    Bullshit. There's definitely some shared traits - deference to authority, gullibility, lack of critical thinking, and most important insecurity/powerlessness but there's no evidence at all of what you are claiming, as incredibly satisfying and superior as I'm sure it it is to believe that.

    It's such lazy and unhelpful, self-serving thinking to believe shit like this. It makes you totally complacent. "Nazism rose because of the personal moral failings of 3/4 of Germans in the 1940s. I'm morally superior and so are my friends and family so don't need to worry about any of us falling down this rabbit hole" is an incredibly dumb take.
    Last edited by Lallante; January 9 2021 at 11:59:59 AM.

  20. #15840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    This is such fucking lazy thinking. Honestly that point of view contributes to the rise of these movements.
    No it is not, it is was history is teaching us. Germany has a common word for such people "Mitläufer" (the dictionaries translation as "mere supporter" isn't quite fitting. It means willfully ignoring the bad stuff) and it has a very negative connotation. Being a "Mitläufer" does not absolve you from anything, you are still a Nazi.
    I think you are getting so hung up on blame that you've lost sight of how to achieve prevention. My argument has NOTHING to do with blame. Of course 'mere supporters' are partly to blame for the actions of the regime they support and, after the overthrow of something like nazism, DESERVE condemnation. That's totally missing the point.

    It's an indidious trap to think this indicates that condemning those people IN ADVANCE is the way to PREVENT the rise of the movement. I'm sure it makes you feel good/superior to throw around those judgements but it WONT PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM.
    Ok, how to "PREVENT THE RISE OF A NEW NAZISM", by being nice and finding excuses for such guys? No, that will just enable them. If someone is going down that rabbit hole, this isn't by "accident", he had a specific racist, anti social mindset before.
    Completely neutrally, why do you think the AfD’s support is rising?

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