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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #13041

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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Alastair, Teds, I think the talking past each other you're doing with some of the other respondents is because they have recognised, if not so plainly articulated, as a fact one thing that you're missing.

    The US is in a civil war, and has been for a number of years. An undeclared civil war, but it's war none the less. The opening salvo was the public pledge by the Republican senate in, when was it? 2010? Someone get this for me pls, to make Obama a one term president and to refuse to pass any legislation he authored. In fact by his second term, they were vetoing their own legislation rather than allow him the 'victory' of actually getting something past him. It was a low level insurgency war that was still pretty civil, but the basic tenet of warfare applied nonetheless: you don't willingly grant your enemy anything, even if it means destroying your own assets. Warfare is when you don't compromise with your enemy on anything: you fight till you win or you're defeated.

    It kicked into high gear when Trump nomination and the sole and only reason it hasn't turned into wide scale official shooting violence is that the Republicans are winning most of what they want without it, and the propaganda cost of doing it violently is higher than the administrative cost of clothing themselves in the increasingly wilted fig-leaf of "norms and institutions, sorta". And what they're not winning without it, they're more than happy - openly and gleefully eager, in fact, to use violence.

    We've already seen documented reports of unmarked vans disappearing people into custody. We've seen the president open encouraging fascist gangs to use violence to intimidate opposition voters. We've seen the president openly call for his opponent to be imprisoned.

    There's no compromise here, because an enemy at war won't recognise or honour any such thing. The only possible interactions with the Republican party are to either defeat them or surrender to them.

    And option #1 WILL involve violence. They'd said it loud. They've said it clear. They've shouted it in our fucking ear.

    Maybe time to start listening to what they're actually saying and looking at what they're actually doing instead of pretending that they're saying what they should and doing what they ought to, hey?

    Because you're at fucking war.
    sorry, again - what's the solution? swing away from them and leave them behind? or slowly try and restore some normalcy, until you can make your ideas the accepted norms?
    This is precisely your issue.

    What is this "normalcy"? Going back to not talking about the endless issues the US has and be polite? Back to pretending the police is fine, racial issues are being solved etc?

    Because that is what "normalcy" is to the American centrist and people are clearly tired of it. Both ways.

  2. #13042

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    One last pre-election comment from me, about what I'm scared of in re: election day's results:

    Educated American voters, by and large, look at Trump, and generally see him for what he is. That's shown in the polling.

    Poorly educated Americans, christian religious Americans, and "patriotic" Americans, especially the white, male (but plenty of females too), middle to lower class, do not.

    What those folks see is two very divergent things:

    1. A Democrat party who has gone (to them) full BLM-riot-supporting, cancel-culture embracing, founding-fathers-shitting-on, "anarchist/socialists" as they see it (yes, they don't understand either term fully), and seemingly not only has abandoned them specifically, but in fact now blames them (white males and their privilege) for all of America's long historic ills and misdeeds. These folks have little themselves, suffer under the police (because Keckers IS right on one point, it's about economic class first and foremost) too, and have most (not all) of the same challenges, but the Democrats, long their party and defenders from the corporate-minded Republicans, now has made them the #1 enemy rhetorically. And they hear a Democrat party whose entire platform often seems like a laundry list of why Americans and America sucks and deserves to burn, and why they are to blame for it.

    2. A Republican party, led by a hype-man huckster with little to no class or respect no doubt, who "talks like they do" and was on TV and WWE, and universally says they're "great", that America is "great", that being patriotic is "great", and that all he wants is to help everyone get more "greatness". And he attacks anyone who (as they see it) tries to say otherwise, in a way that many with right-leaning views have wanted for ages, aggressively. Trump is an obvious populist, preaching to a very large possible voter group, with a 'positive' message (to this voter group) and who defends many of the things they want defended (call it tradition and pride, call it racism, it can be seen and often IS both things), and it's working.

    I fear once again, that the polls and pollsters have it wrong. That many voters outside the urban educated cores will not tell a pollster who they support, out of fear of attack or censure, but will happily vote for Trump come election day.

    I hope I'm wrong, truly, but this is my fear. Because no matter what, I believe we're all worse off if Trump wins again.

    Malc, you might be right. But I refuse to fight this fight in a way that escalates the division, no matter what the "other side" does. I believe in convincing people, not in abandoning them as an enemy to be defeated. After all, I'm an example it can be done. I started here a moderate Republican/Libertarian, and I'm today a moderate Democrat with quite a few agreements with the Progressives on policy. Sure, I'm educated, so I'm not the yokel in a trailer buying into Trumps guff, but I believe those people can be salvaged too.

    We'll see. Good luck to all of us (American residents and voters) come election day. Be safe. Do the right thing.

    07

    Alistair Cononach, Malediction scout, R3, logging off.


  3. #13043
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    One last pre-election comment from me, about what I'm scared of in re: election day's results:

    Educated American voters, by and large, look at Trump, and generally see him for what he is. That's shown in the polling.

    Poorly educated Americans, christian religious Americans, and "patriotic" Americans, especially the white, male (but plenty of females too), middle to lower class, do not.

    What those folks see is two very divergent things:

    1. A Democrat party who has gone (to them) full BLM-riot-supporting, cancel-culture embracing, founding-fathers-shitting-on, "anarchist/socialists" as they see it (yes, they don't understand either term fully), and seemingly not only has abandoned them specifically, but in fact now blames them (white males and their privilege) for all of America's long historic ills and misdeeds. These folks have little themselves, suffer under the police (because Keckers IS right on one point, it's about economic class first and foremost) too, and have most (not all) of the same challenges, but the Democrats, long their party and defenders from the corporate-minded Republicans, now has made them the #1 enemy rhetorically. And they hear a Democrat party whose entire platform often seems like a laundry list of why Americans and America sucks and deserves to burn, and why they are to blame for it.

    2. A Republican party, led by a hype-man huckster with little to no class or respect no doubt, who "talks like they do" and was on TV and WWE, and universally says they're "great", that America is "great", that being patriotic is "great", and that all he wants is to help everyone get more "greatness". And he attacks anyone who (as they see it) tries to say otherwise, in a way that many with right-leaning views have wanted for ages, aggressively. Trump is an obvious populist, preaching to a very large possible voter group, with a 'positive' message (to this voter group) and who defends many of the things they want defended (call it tradition and pride, call it racism, it can be seen and often IS both things), and it's working.

    I fear once again, that the polls and pollsters have it wrong. That many voters outside the urban educated cores will not tell a pollster who they support, out of fear of attack or censure, but will happily vote for Trump come election day.

    I hope I'm wrong, truly, but this is my fear. Because no matter what, I believe we're all worse off if Trump wins again.

    Malc, you might be right. But I refuse to fight this fight in a way that escalates the division, no matter what the "other side" does. I believe in convincing people, not in abandoning them as an enemy to be defeated. After all, I'm an example it can be done. I started here a moderate Republican/Libertarian, and I'm today a moderate Democrat with quite a few agreements with the Progressives on policy. Sure, I'm educated, so I'm not the yokel in a trailer buying into Trumps guff, but I believe those people can be salvaged too.

    We'll see. Good luck to all of us (American residents and voters) come election day. Be safe. Do the right thing.

    07

    Alistair Cononach, Malediction scout, R3, logging off.
    You're one of the few good guys we have here. Take care.

  4. #13044

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    One last pre-election comment from me, about what I'm scared of in re: election day's results:

    Educated American voters, by and large, look at Trump, and generally see him for what he is. That's shown in the polling.

    Poorly educated Americans, christian religious Americans, and "patriotic" Americans, especially the white, male (but plenty of females too), middle to lower class, do not.

    What those folks see is two very divergent things:

    1. A Democrat party who has gone (to them) full BLM-riot-supporting, cancel-culture embracing, founding-fathers-shitting-on, "anarchist/socialists" as they see it (yes, they don't understand either term fully), and seemingly not only has abandoned them specifically, but in fact now blames them (white males and their privilege) for all of America's long historic ills and misdeeds. These folks have little themselves, suffer under the police (because Keckers IS right on one point, it's about economic class first and foremost) too, and have most (not all) of the same challenges, but the Democrats, long their party and defenders from the corporate-minded Republicans, now has made them the #1 enemy rhetorically. And they hear a Democrat party whose entire platform often seems like a laundry list of why Americans and America sucks and deserves to burn, and why they are to blame for it.

    2. A Republican party, led by a hype-man huckster with little to no class or respect no doubt, who "talks like they do" and was on TV and WWE, and universally says they're "great", that America is "great", that being patriotic is "great", and that all he wants is to help everyone get more "greatness". And he attacks anyone who (as they see it) tries to say otherwise, in a way that many with right-leaning views have wanted for ages, aggressively. Trump is an obvious populist, preaching to a very large possible voter group, with a 'positive' message (to this voter group) and who defends many of the things they want defended (call it tradition and pride, call it racism, it can be seen and often IS both things), and it's working.

    I fear once again, that the polls and pollsters have it wrong. That many voters outside the urban educated cores will not tell a pollster who they support, out of fear of attack or censure, but will happily vote for Trump come election day.

    I hope I'm wrong, truly, but this is my fear. Because no matter what, I believe we're all worse off if Trump wins again.

    Malc, you might be right. But I refuse to fight this fight in a way that escalates the division, no matter what the "other side" does. I believe in convincing people, not in abandoning them as an enemy to be defeated. After all, I'm an example it can be done. I started here a moderate Republican/Libertarian, and I'm today a moderate Democrat with quite a few agreements with the Progressives on policy. Sure, I'm educated, so I'm not the yokel in a trailer buying into Trumps guff, but I believe those people can be salvaged too.

    We'll see. Good luck to all of us (American residents and voters) come election day. Be safe. Do the right thing.

    07

    Alistair Cononach, Malediction scout, R3, logging off.
    Thanks, Alistair, good luck and best wishes.

    I often disagree with what you say, but I find it useful to get your perspective.

  5. #13045
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    One last pre-election comment from me, about what I'm scared of in re: election day's results:

    Educated American voters, by and large, look at Trump, and generally see him for what he is. That's shown in the polling.

    Poorly educated Americans, christian religious Americans, and "patriotic" Americans, especially the white, male (but plenty of females too), middle to lower class, do not.

    What those folks see is two very divergent things:

    1. A Democrat party who has gone (to them) full BLM-riot-supporting, cancel-culture embracing, founding-fathers-shitting-on, "anarchist/socialists" as they see it (yes, they don't understand either term fully), and seemingly not only has abandoned them specifically, but in fact now blames them (white males and their privilege) for all of America's long historic ills and misdeeds. These folks have little themselves, suffer under the police (because Keckers IS right on one point, it's about economic class first and foremost) too, and have most (not all) of the same challenges, but the Democrats, long their party and defenders from the corporate-minded Republicans, now has made them the #1 enemy rhetorically. And they hear a Democrat party whose entire platform often seems like a laundry list of why Americans and America sucks and deserves to burn, and why they are to blame for it.

    2. A Republican party, led by a hype-man huckster with little to no class or respect no doubt, who "talks like they do" and was on TV and WWE, and universally says they're "great", that America is "great", that being patriotic is "great", and that all he wants is to help everyone get more "greatness". And he attacks anyone who (as they see it) tries to say otherwise, in a way that many with right-leaning views have wanted for ages, aggressively. Trump is an obvious populist, preaching to a very large possible voter group, with a 'positive' message (to this voter group) and who defends many of the things they want defended (call it tradition and pride, call it racism, it can be seen and often IS both things), and it's working.

    I fear once again, that the polls and pollsters have it wrong. That many voters outside the urban educated cores will not tell a pollster who they support, out of fear of attack or censure, but will happily vote for Trump come election day.

    I hope I'm wrong, truly, but this is my fear. Because no matter what, I believe we're all worse off if Trump wins again.

    Malc, you might be right. But I refuse to fight this fight in a way that escalates the division, no matter what the "other side" does. I believe in convincing people, not in abandoning them as an enemy to be defeated. After all, I'm an example it can be done. I started here a moderate Republican/Libertarian, and I'm today a moderate Democrat with quite a few agreements with the Progressives on policy. Sure, I'm educated, so I'm not the yokel in a trailer buying into Trumps guff, but I believe those people can be salvaged too.

    We'll see. Good luck to all of us (American residents and voters) come election day. Be safe. Do the right thing.

    07

    Alistair Cononach, Malediction scout, R3, logging off.
    In which Alistair discovers the existence of the lumpenproletariat.

  6. #13046
    Totally Not Larkonnis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    One last pre-election comment from me, about what I'm scared of in re: election day's results:

    Educated American voters, by and large, look at Trump, and generally see him for what he is. That's shown in the polling.

    Poorly educated Americans, christian religious Americans, and "patriotic" Americans, especially the white, male (but plenty of females too), middle to lower class, do not.

    What those folks see is two very divergent things:

    1. A Democrat party who has gone (to them) full BLM-riot-supporting, cancel-culture embracing, founding-fathers-shitting-on, "anarchist/socialists" as they see it (yes, they don't understand either term fully), and seemingly not only has abandoned them specifically, but in fact now blames them (white males and their privilege) for all of America's long historic ills and misdeeds. These folks have little themselves, suffer under the police (because Keckers IS right on one point, it's about economic class first and foremost) too, and have most (not all) of the same challenges, but the Democrats, long their party and defenders from the corporate-minded Republicans, now has made them the #1 enemy rhetorically. And they hear a Democrat party whose entire platform often seems like a laundry list of why Americans and America sucks and deserves to burn, and why they are to blame for it.

    2. A Republican party, led by a hype-man huckster with little to no class or respect no doubt, who "talks like they do" and was on TV and WWE, and universally says they're "great", that America is "great", that being patriotic is "great", and that all he wants is to help everyone get more "greatness". And he attacks anyone who (as they see it) tries to say otherwise, in a way that many with right-leaning views have wanted for ages, aggressively. Trump is an obvious populist, preaching to a very large possible voter group, with a 'positive' message (to this voter group) and who defends many of the things they want defended (call it tradition and pride, call it racism, it can be seen and often IS both things), and it's working.

    I fear once again, that the polls and pollsters have it wrong. That many voters outside the urban educated cores will not tell a pollster who they support, out of fear of attack or censure, but will happily vote for Trump come election day.

    I hope I'm wrong, truly, but this is my fear. Because no matter what, I believe we're all worse off if Trump wins again.

    Malc, you might be right. But I refuse to fight this fight in a way that escalates the division, no matter what the "other side" does. I believe in convincing people, not in abandoning them as an enemy to be defeated. After all, I'm an example it can be done. I started here a moderate Republican/Libertarian, and I'm today a moderate Democrat with quite a few agreements with the Progressives on policy. Sure, I'm educated, so I'm not the yokel in a trailer buying into Trumps guff, but I believe those people can be salvaged too.

    We'll see. Good luck to all of us (American residents and voters) come election day. Be safe. Do the right thing.

    07

    Alistair Cononach, Malediction scout, R3, logging off.
    Despite being a plastic Jock you're one of the few good posters that still remains here.


  7. #13047
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?

  8. #13048
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Trump led us to war with ourselves.
    meh

  9. #13049
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Instead he just deployed military hardware into cities who don't want to be terrorised by their own police departments anymore.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  10. #13050

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Yet, he still managed to kill more US citizens than the Vietman war.

  11. #13051
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    So this new laptop full of incriminating emails that just popped up... Wow such a surprise. I'm certain that if FBI runs the tests they will find Biden's DNA on it, and then they can indict him. Moscow university has very good genetics labs.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

  12. #13052
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Why look abroad when he's openly encouraging violence at home?
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  13. #13053
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Why look abroad when he's openly encouraging violence at home?
    He’s been saying law and order, while the violent left runs around destroying property and murdering people. Are you even trying to keep up with what’s been going on or do you have bias eyes and ears.

  14. #13054
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Why look abroad when he's openly encouraging violence at home?
    He’s been saying law and order, while the violent left runs around destroying property and murdering people. Are you even trying to keep up with what’s been going on or do you have bias eyes and ears.
    you should look behind the headlines for a change.
    even a casual glance would show that the violence is massively disproportional and applied mostly to the people protesting, the actual property damage is fairly mild for the sort of civil disturbances going on and as for the murdering, that's mostly the police and their supporters.

    and no, he's not just been saying "law and order" he's been demanding a military crackdown and endorsing vigilantism on numerous occasions.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  15. #13055
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    The violent extremists in Trump's cult wanted to deploy frontline US combat troops on the people who help pay for them.

    Those people should be denied firearms ownership on the grounds of mental ability.
    meh

  16. #13056
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Why look abroad when he's openly encouraging violence at home?
    He’s been saying law and order, while the violent left runs around destroying property and murdering people. Are you even trying to keep up with what’s been going on or do you have bias eyes and ears.
    I've never seen the police described as "the left" before but you do you, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  17. #13057
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    Why look abroad when he's openly encouraging violence at home?
    He’s been saying law and order, while the violent left runs around destroying property and murdering people. Are you even trying to keep up with what’s been going on or do you have bias eyes and ears.
    I hope the second amendment community solves the problem of the president.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  18. #13058
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Marlona, how goes the progress on evidence of voter fraud?

  19. #13059
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Trump is the first President in four decades that has not taken us into a new war or armed conflict, and you want the guy who will find a reason to go to war with any country to win?
    hi did you see the posts before about the vote rigging you've seen, and the proof you mentioned?

  20. #13060
    Liare's Avatar
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    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

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