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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #12981
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    :thonk:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssness/616644/

    Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power
    Elite politicians invoke the rhetoric of national emergency only to behave like hapless passengers trapped aboard a sinking ship.
    This gives me a lot of mixed feelings. He's essentially criticizing the democrats for not acting like republicans and shutting the government down in order to get what they want. I'm definitely still a little torn about wanting the dems to play hardball like that. I'm also no even sure it's possible, unless there's a funding shortage coming in the next couple weeks? And a government shutdown sure seems like it'd derail any hopes at further stimulus talks, with the Dems have made a priority (because people generally need to eat).

    He's essentially arguing that if trump is really that bad, then the dems should be burning everything to the ground to stop him from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad.

    Which I can understand, but at the same time seems like a really easy way to hand the republicans a buncha easy talking points (whether truthful or not) and lose another election.
    You understand in real terams what this means.

    -Republicans be will "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    -Democrats will be "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    And the end result is where we are today, divided to the borders of Civil War, no compromises of any kind, and political extremists running both sides.

    And who suffers? All of us do, because nothing gets done. Ever.

    I guess if you buy into the arguments of certain folks here, and think the end results after this "broken down into sports-like win-at-all-costs gridlock" stage devolves into mass violence and a glorious future where all the "fascists" have been murdered and only good anarcho-socialists remain, I guess you might like it...

    After all, civility, compromise, incrementalism, moderation and centrism is the real evil. Much better to have division, hatred, stagnation, violence and maybe a glorious political revolution some day, maybe. Just ask the folks here who think violence is the only answer now.

    In before the usual "but THEY do it/did it first...." juvenallia.
    Republicans want to put kids in concentration camps. Democrats want free healthcare. See the difference yet?
    meh

  2. #12982
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    :thonk:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssness/616644/

    Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power
    Elite politicians invoke the rhetoric of national emergency only to behave like hapless passengers trapped aboard a sinking ship.
    This gives me a lot of mixed feelings. He's essentially criticizing the democrats for not acting like republicans and shutting the government down in order to get what they want. I'm definitely still a little torn about wanting the dems to play hardball like that. I'm also no even sure it's possible, unless there's a funding shortage coming in the next couple weeks? And a government shutdown sure seems like it'd derail any hopes at further stimulus talks, with the Dems have made a priority (because people generally need to eat).

    He's essentially arguing that if trump is really that bad, then the dems should be burning everything to the ground to stop him from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad.

    Which I can understand, but at the same time seems like a really easy way to hand the republicans a buncha easy talking points (whether truthful or not) and lose another election.
    on reflection, this deserves a more sincere reply than the glib meme i put out.
    even having talks with the Republicans at this point is a massive tactical and strategic mistake if you value core democratic values. doing so grants them legitimacy that they can, will and have used as leverage against you and with the voters. you're not dealing with a "equal party", the other side of the table can and will chuck you in a concentration camp if you do not fail in line and they're able to so. there is no principal or moral obligation to "work with them" for the sake of democratic principles because they have rejected the fundamental principles in the first place.

    does that mean depth-charging good and necessary things such as the stimulus ? yes, it does because working with "them" grants them legitimacy you do NOT want them to have, you cannot denounce somebody as a tyrant and turn around to collaborate with them, and that is precisely what they are doing. there ain't nobody who's going to remember some means-tested-to-hell-one-off-cheque in the aftermath of a coup, so calling for the democrats to stop weakening their position in the run-up to one is entirely reasonable to do so.

    when it comes down to it, the outcome of a muddled and possibly fraudulent election result is largely decided on political legitimacy, if the democrats reject the result but have spend the run-up to the outcome happily working with the republicans, how can they reasonably claim to be different or claim principal or moral high ground ? how can they expect to rally civic support on that basis ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  3. #12983

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    :thonk:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssness/616644/

    Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power
    Elite politicians invoke the rhetoric of national emergency only to behave like hapless passengers trapped aboard a sinking ship.
    This gives me a lot of mixed feelings. He's essentially criticizing the democrats for not acting like republicans and shutting the government down in order to get what they want. I'm definitely still a little torn about wanting the dems to play hardball like that. I'm also no even sure it's possible, unless there's a funding shortage coming in the next couple weeks? And a government shutdown sure seems like it'd derail any hopes at further stimulus talks, with the Dems have made a priority (because people generally need to eat).

    He's essentially arguing that if trump is really that bad, then the dems should be burning everything to the ground to stop him from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad.

    Which I can understand, but at the same time seems like a really easy way to hand the republicans a buncha easy talking points (whether truthful or not) and lose another election.
    You understand in real terams what this means.

    -Republicans be will "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    -Democrats will be "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    And the end result is where we are today, divided to the borders of Civil War, no compromises of any kind, and political extremists running both sides.

    And who suffers? All of us do, because nothing gets done. Ever.

    I guess if you buy into the arguments of certain folks here, and think the end results after this "broken down into sports-like win-at-all-costs gridlock" stage devolves into mass violence and a glorious future where all the "fascists" have been murdered and only good anarcho-socialists remain, I guess you might like it...

    After all, civility, compromise, incrementalism, moderation and centrism is the real evil. Much better to have division, hatred, stagnation, violence and maybe a glorious political revolution some day, maybe. Just ask the folks here who think violence is the only answer now.

    In before the usual "but THEY do it/did it first...." juvenallia.
    The article was basically written precisely for you and your kind.

    Nothing is done *precisely* because of this absolute obsession with compromise. How the fuck do you compromise with putting children in cages, protecting cops murdering people, denying people basic health care etc. without getting dragged along right with it? Oh just do a little bit less of all of those? Is that your compromise?

    All proven again and again and again. Tell us, how much did those millions approved to "improve" those concentration camps do along the way, sth your compromise at all costs lot were such big fans of?

    How do you manage to look at the last couple of years of this absolute shitshow and STILL learn absolutely nothing from it?
    Last edited by Isyel; October 11 2020 at 06:39:47 PM.

  4. #12984
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    Liberals can't understand fascism because they don't have a socialist analysis of society. Therefore they simply ignore it.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  5. #12985

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    But they care about the environment, so that matters! Never mind if society is going to be too fucked to recover before that even matters.

  6. #12986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    But they care about the environment, so that matters! Never mind if society is going to be too fucked to recover before that even matters.
    they do ?

    Biden's climate plan is 30 years late and 1 trillion dollar short tbh.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  7. #12987

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    But they care about the environment, so that matters! Never mind if society is going to be too fucked to recover before that even matters.
    they do ?

    Biden's climate plan is 30 years late and 1 trillion dollar short tbh.
    Thought that the excited ! was enough to show the level of sarcasm.

    They do love saying it tho.

  8. #12988

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    :thonk:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssness/616644/

    Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power
    Elite politicians invoke the rhetoric of national emergency only to behave like hapless passengers trapped aboard a sinking ship.
    This gives me a lot of mixed feelings. He's essentially criticizing the democrats for not acting like republicans and shutting the government down in order to get what they want. I'm definitely still a little torn about wanting the dems to play hardball like that. I'm also no even sure it's possible, unless there's a funding shortage coming in the next couple weeks? And a government shutdown sure seems like it'd derail any hopes at further stimulus talks, with the Dems have made a priority (because people generally need to eat).

    He's essentially arguing that if trump is really that bad, then the dems should be burning everything to the ground to stop him from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad.

    Which I can understand, but at the same time seems like a really easy way to hand the republicans a buncha easy talking points (whether truthful or not) and lose another election.
    on reflection, this deserves a more sincere reply than the glib meme i put out.
    even having talks with the Republicans at this point is a massive tactical and strategic mistake if you value core democratic values. doing so grants them legitimacy that they can, will and have used as leverage against you and with the voters. you're not dealing with a "equal party", the other side of the table can and will chuck you in a concentration camp if you do not fail in line and they're able to so. there is no principal or moral obligation to "work with them" for the sake of democratic principles because they have rejected the fundamental principles in the first place.

    does that mean depth-charging good and necessary things such as the stimulus ? yes, it does because working with "them" grants them legitimacy you do NOT want them to have, you cannot denounce somebody as a tyrant and turn around to collaborate with them, and that is precisely what they are doing. there ain't nobody who's going to remember some means-tested-to-hell-one-off-cheque in the aftermath of a coup, so calling for the democrats to stop weakening their position in the run-up to one is entirely reasonable to do so.

    when it comes down to it, the outcome of a muddled and possibly fraudulent election result is largely decided on political legitimacy, if the democrats reject the result but have spend the run-up to the outcome happily working with the republicans, how can they reasonably claim to be different or claim principal or moral high ground ? how can they expect to rally civic support on that basis ?
    The problem that I see, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that republicans can burn everything to the ground because they can get away with it and keep winning elections. Their voters consist of people who are either intelligent but soulless and don't give a shit except that they keep getting richer, or those who have been adequately brainwashed that they'll support a republican promise to shoot them in the chest so long as it comes with a promise to shoot black people twice.

    Democrats, on the other hand, have to appeal to voters who are neither sociopaths nor brainwashed cultists, but are still swayed by what they see and hear.

    And then you've got to deal with a comically biased media that has been so battered with "fake news!" that they're hardly willing to really go hard on the republicans, but they'll gladly run fifty bajillion stories about hillary's emails.

    The Dems and Reps aren't playing on an even field. Reps play dirty, media shrugs, some of it even cheers. Dems play dirty, media screams its head off.

    My hesitance about the democrats playing hardball isn't that I don't want them to. Shit, I'd have laughed my ass off if they'd spend the last 18 months since taking over the house clogging up the senate with impeachment after impeachment so that Mitch couldn't force through so many judges.

    I'm just not sure they'd come out of it in a position to actually win elections afterward, because while people like you and I will recognize and support what they're doing, the voters they have to attract are a different story.
    Quarantined and loving life.

  9. #12989

  10. #12990
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    :thonk:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssness/616644/

    Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power
    Elite politicians invoke the rhetoric of national emergency only to behave like hapless passengers trapped aboard a sinking ship.
    This gives me a lot of mixed feelings. He's essentially criticizing the democrats for not acting like republicans and shutting the government down in order to get what they want. I'm definitely still a little torn about wanting the dems to play hardball like that. I'm also no even sure it's possible, unless there's a funding shortage coming in the next couple weeks? And a government shutdown sure seems like it'd derail any hopes at further stimulus talks, with the Dems have made a priority (because people generally need to eat).

    He's essentially arguing that if trump is really that bad, then the dems should be burning everything to the ground to stop him from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad.

    Which I can understand, but at the same time seems like a really easy way to hand the republicans a buncha easy talking points (whether truthful or not) and lose another election.
    You understand in real terams what this means.

    -Republicans be will "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    -Democrats will be "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    And the end result is where we are today, divided to the borders of Civil War, no compromises of any kind, and political extremists running both sides.

    And who suffers? All of us do, because nothing gets done. Ever.

    I guess if you buy into the arguments of certain folks here, and think the end results after this "broken down into sports-like win-at-all-costs gridlock" stage devolves into mass violence and a glorious future where all the "fascists" have been murdered and only good anarcho-socialists remain, I guess you might like it...

    After all, civility, compromise, incrementalism, moderation and centrism is the real evil. Much better to have division, hatred, stagnation, violence and maybe a glorious political revolution some day, maybe. Just ask the folks here who think violence is the only answer now.

    In before the usual "but THEY do it/did it first...." juvenallia.
    Complaining about civility is nice and all, but how do you bring it back? What is the plan for compromising with the Senate GOP for instance? I'd say that this polarization is just here to stay and we're just gonna have to deal with it for most of our adult lives.

    And the "juvenallia" thing...the real reason you flip out about that is because your "civility and compromise" rants depend on people not mentioning where the polarization and political problems began. You can't have a real analysis of US politics without mentioning how people like Gingrich and McConnell broke federal politics. The posturing of how everyone is a hopelessly polarized keyboard warrior ignores the progression where attitudes were hardened by the right's tactics.
    Last edited by mewninn; October 11 2020 at 08:31:30 PM.

  11. #12991
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    I’d like to see evidence of “political extremists” “running” the Democratic Party.

    Alistair, you should read that article I linked two posts up. Good analysis of what happened to moderate political consensus in America.

  12. #12992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    The problem that I see, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that republicans can burn everything to the ground because they can get away with it and keep winning elections. Their voters consist of people who are either intelligent but soulless and don't give a shit except that they keep getting richer, or those who have been adequately brainwashed that they'll support a republican promise to shoot them in the chest so long as it comes with a promise to shoot black people twice.

    Democrats, on the other hand, have to appeal to voters who are neither sociopaths nor brainwashed cultists, but are still swayed by what they see and hear.
    if you cannot build a strong coalition off opposing fascism then you've already lost and need to step away from the pulpit, the democrats are two steps removed from loudly pronouncing "We aren't anti-fascist!" at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    And then you've got to deal with a comically biased media that has been so battered with "fake news!" that they're hardly willing to really go hard on the republicans, but they'll gladly run fifty bajillion stories about hillary's emails.

    The Dems and Reps aren't playing on an even field. Reps play dirty, media shrugs, some of it even cheers. Dems play dirty, media screams its head off.
    and what consequence does that screaming have besides fuck-and-all ?
    you're fuzzing over playing a optics game i have participated in my entire adult life, people are, as a rule, much more swayed by their personal experience than whatever the talking heads scream about. it's why "praxis" is the name of the game on the left, don't talk about it, build it and the rest follows. of course, we both know why this is not, and cannot happen, it would undermine the principles that govern the party and require compromises and concessions the democratic establishment are not willing to make, they have made that perfectly clear at this point. this dichotomy is why they're being called controlled opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    My hesitance about the democrats playing hardball isn't that I don't want them to. Shit, I'd have laughed my ass off if they'd spend the last 18 months since taking over the house clogging up the senate with impeachment after impeachment so that Mitch couldn't force through so many judges.

    I'm just not sure they'd come out of it in a position to actually win elections afterward, because while people like you and I will recognize and support what they're doing, the voters they have to attract are a different story.
    would you call what they've been doing the last 12 months a winning strategy ?
    without COVID, Trump would likely sail straight into a re-election with minimum of effort on his part.

    fundamentally, democracy is a compromise wherein the participants agree to a set of rules in order to minimize the fallout of the power struggles, if one party refuses to follow the rules the consequences should be immediate and as harsh as possible, you want to create a crisis in that sort of situation, not simply shrug and go back to the negotiation table. future elections are largely irrelevant on this point, both Trump and Pence have refused to commit to actually ensuring a power transition, they've outright stated they're going to do a coup if they can get away with it.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  13. #12993

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    The problem that I see, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that republicans can burn everything to the ground because they can get away with it and keep winning elections. Their voters consist of people who are either intelligent but soulless and don't give a shit except that they keep getting richer, or those who have been adequately brainwashed that they'll support a republican promise to shoot them in the chest so long as it comes with a promise to shoot black people twice.

    Democrats, on the other hand, have to appeal to voters who are neither sociopaths nor brainwashed cultists, but are still swayed by what they see and hear.
    if you cannot build a strong coalition off opposing fascism then you've already lost and need to step away from the pulpit, the democrats are two steps removed from loudly pronouncing "We aren't anti-fascist!" at this point.
    No doubt. This is absolutely an indictment of the current state of the democratic party, and they should be embarrassed that this election is looking as close as it is. Their utter inability to control the narrative is fucking sad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    And then you've got to deal with a comically biased media that has been so battered with "fake news!" that they're hardly willing to really go hard on the republicans, but they'll gladly run fifty bajillion stories about hillary's emails.

    The Dems and Reps aren't playing on an even field. Reps play dirty, media shrugs, some of it even cheers. Dems play dirty, media screams its head off.
    and what consequence does that screaming have besides fuck-and-all ?


    That screaming put trump in office in 2016.

    The right-wing media will scream about how the sky is blue and it's the dems' fault. The problem is that the slightly-less-right-wing media (CNN, MSNBC) only have a slightly higher bar for what's considered scandalous. They know that if a democrat forgets to tie their shoes, they can get clicks by talking about it. And even if they aren't the ones doing the attacking, they can instead talk about the controversy of the other nut-jobs attacking dems over petty shit like haircuts.
    you're fuzzing over playing a optics game i have participated in my entire adult life, people are, as a rule, much more swayed by their personal experience than whatever the talking heads scream about. it's why "praxis" is the name of the game on the left, don't talk about it, build it and the rest follows. of course, we both know why this is not, and cannot happen, it would undermine the principles that govern the party and require compromises and concessions the democratic establishment are not willing to make, they have made that perfectly clear at this point. this dichotomy is why they're being called controlled opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    My hesitance about the democrats playing hardball isn't that I don't want them to. Shit, I'd have laughed my ass off if they'd spend the last 18 months since taking over the house clogging up the senate with impeachment after impeachment so that Mitch couldn't force through so many judges.

    I'm just not sure they'd come out of it in a position to actually win elections afterward, because while people like you and I will recognize and support what they're doing, the voters they have to attract are a different story.
    would you call what they've been doing the last 12 months a winning strategy ?
    without COVID, Trump would likely sail straight into a re-election with minimum of effort on his part.
    Nope, we pretty much agree here.


    fundamentally, democracy is a compromise wherein the participants agree to a set of rules in order to minimize the fallout of the power struggles, if one party refuses to follow the rules the consequences should be immediate and as harsh as possible, you want to create a crisis in that sort of situation, not simply shrug and go back to the negotiation table. future elections are largely irrelevant on this point, both Trump and Pence have refused to commit to actually ensuring a power transition, they've outright stated they're going to do a coup if they can get away with it.
    I don't think we disagree regarding what should happen. I think we disagree on whether our current batch of democrats could pull it off without somehow tripping over their own limp dicks and handing trump victory when he should be losing by thirty points (and is somehow only behind by 8-10).

    Some of that is the fault of those democrats, but some of it is the simple fact that they have to play by different rules, because the electorate rewards republicans for burning things down but doesn't seem to for democrats.

    It's possible that I'm wrong on that point. It's possible that they could go whole hog and not get eviscerated in the news. I'm just not optimistic about our news media having any goddam sense after watching them (a) accidentally put trump in office because he was good for ratings and (b) continue to slob his knob for four years because it's good for ratings, and (c) pillory the democrats when they get the chance because, once again, it's good for ratings.
    Quarantined and loving life.

  14. #12994
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    If Democrats can win a majority in this highly biased system the only thing they should gather from that is a signal to steamroll in new states, packing the Supreme court, remove inept judges placed by Trump, push through Medicare for all, crack apart every monopoly, pull military forces and cut defense spending by massive amounts, rip down or nationalize pharma companies, crush police power and invest in infrastructure. Seize as much wealth from the super rich as they can and remove taxes on the poorest people.

    Now tell me the chances of all but maybe one or two of those critically needed things happening if they get it all. I plan on protesting if those things don't happen, I hope other do as well. 2010 didn't work, we need radical changes now for even a chance at recovery

    I forgot to add make unions great again, tax mega churches, enforce environmental laws, and put Elon and Bezos in a fight pit then nationalize their industries.

  15. #12995

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    :thonk:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssness/616644/

    Why Liberals Pretend They Have No Power
    Elite politicians invoke the rhetoric of national emergency only to behave like hapless passengers trapped aboard a sinking ship.
    This gives me a lot of mixed feelings. He's essentially criticizing the democrats for not acting like republicans and shutting the government down in order to get what they want. I'm definitely still a little torn about wanting the dems to play hardball like that. I'm also no even sure it's possible, unless there's a funding shortage coming in the next couple weeks? And a government shutdown sure seems like it'd derail any hopes at further stimulus talks, with the Dems have made a priority (because people generally need to eat).

    He's essentially arguing that if trump is really that bad, then the dems should be burning everything to the ground to stop him from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad.

    Which I can understand, but at the same time seems like a really easy way to hand the republicans a buncha easy talking points (whether truthful or not) and lose another election.
    You understand in real terams what this means.

    -Republicans be will "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    -Democrats will be "burning everything to the ground to stop (them) from accomplishing anything at all, good or bad"

    And the end result is where we are today, divided to the borders of Civil War, no compromises of any kind, and political extremists running both sides.

    And who suffers? All of us do, because nothing gets done. Ever.

    I guess if you buy into the arguments of certain folks here, and think the end results after this "broken down into sports-like win-at-all-costs gridlock" stage devolves into mass violence and a glorious future where all the "fascists" have been murdered and only good anarcho-socialists remain, I guess you might like it...

    After all, civility, compromise, incrementalism, moderation and centrism is the real evil. Much better to have division, hatred, stagnation, violence and maybe a glorious political revolution some day, maybe. Just ask the folks here who think violence is the only answer now.

    In before the usual "but THEY do it/did it first...." juvenallia.
    Republicans want to put kids in concentration camps. Democrats want free healthcare. See the difference yet?
    You mean the very same "Concentration Camps" that existed under President Obama?

    The only meaningful difference is the family separation policy, which we've covered in great detail previously (and I do not support).

    And Democrat healthcare isn't free. Democrats want it paid for differently and by different people than who pay for it today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    The article was basically written precisely for you and your kind.

    Nothing is done *precisely* because of this absolute obsession with compromise. How the fuck do you compromise with putting children in cages...
    You could start by being intellectually honest, and understanding that the Democrats put children in cages the same way Republicans are today, with only minor differences in policy.

    , protecting cops murdering people,
    Most of whom are being "protected" in Democrat dominated Cities, by Democrat Administrations and Democrat prosecutors.

    denying people basic health care etc.
    *sigh*

    Oh just do a little bit less of all of those? Is that your compromise?
    Yes. Do a little less, then convince the electorate that that's better and show them indisputable proof why, then do a little more less, then a little more less, till the end-goal is achieved.

    Because demanding it all to change, instantly, all in one go, against the wishes of the electorate, right now or else...doesn't work in the real world. Not without the violence and revolution many of you are so hungry to see.

    All change comes from hard work and time and changed minds over generations of voters. Sucks, but it is what it is.

    Discussion of compromise and incrementalism here is a wasted effort, as is discussion on why we're where we are. You cannot see that you will never get what you want (what WE want given I support most of the same things) by "burning it all down". Like many here, the idea of convincing anyone of anything has been rejected wholesale as pointless, the opposition dehumanized as evil and beyond help, same as they do in reverse, so round and round we go, nothing but hatred and conflict and nothing changing.

    Enjoy your evening folks, I'm "running away" now to drown my sorrows after watching my Jets go 0-5 in pathetic fashion. Consider it a win for your arguments, since you will anyway. I honestly have nothing more to add to this discussion that hasn't been said (and denounced) a million times by now.


  16. #12996
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    You mean the very same "Concentration Camps" that existed under President Obama?

    The only meaningful difference is the family separation policy, which we've covered in great detail previously (and I do not support).
    Well, that’s the difference, isn’t it The willful cruelty and hatred of brown people.
    meh

  17. #12997
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    nothing alastair said was wrong really. you don't beat hate by being just as bad in a different flavour, all you do then is swing the pendulum even further from the norm, and then the swing back is more horrific. you beat it by winning the small goals, and normalising your point of view.

  18. #12998
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Doubt death penalty for tax evasion will be normalized anytime soon.

  19. #12999
    Shaikar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    you beat it by winning the small goals, and normalising your point of view.
    Which is exactly what the Republicans did in the first place, if any further evidence for it's efficacy were needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by cucaldvida View Post
    ...suck on the devices of the callow people...

  20. #13000
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    nothing alastair said was wrong really. you don't beat hate by being just as bad in a different flavour, all you do then is swing the pendulum even further from the norm, and then the swing back is more horrific. you beat it by winning the small goals, and normalising your point of view.
    lol get a grip. There is no "just as bad" if the Democrats are a little more assertive about using their power.

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