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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #14881
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Business rejects UK minister’s claim it has ‘head in sand’ over Brexit
    https://www.ft.com/content/08ce0614-...c-d487f40a122a

    Business associations reacted angrily on Tuesday after a government minister in charge of Brexit border preparations accused them of taking a “head in the sand approach” to the coming border frictions with the EU. Theodore Agnew, a minister working on preparations for Brexit at the Treasury and Cabinet Office, told MPs that business needed to be “more energetic” in preparing for the UK’s departure from the EU single market and customs union in just 80 days’ time. “Ultimately, the government can only do so much,” he said. “If businesses haven’t engaged in the process and understood the processes from 1 January, that has to be their responsibility.”

    The minister’s blunt warning drew an indignant response from business groups that have repeatedly demanded clarity and urgency from the government on new border processes and IT systems, many of which are still not in place. [...]

    Lord Agnew also drew fire from the Road Haulage Association after saying he was more interested in talking to groups that were more “integrally involved” in cross-border trade, rather than the haulage group, which has highlighted the government’s shortcomings in the past.* Richard Burnett. the RHA’s chief executive, replied on Twitter: “It’s clear Lord Agnew doesn’t understand how the logistics industry works and that hauliers will have to provide the full service of customs declarations as well due to the shortage of agents. Of course he can leave us out and ignore us, but at his peril.”

    HM Revenue & Customs has estimated that up to 260m new customs declarations will be completed per year at a cost of 15bn, with industry estimating that up to 50,000 new customs agents will be required to help industry deal with the coming red tape.

    Lord Agnew said he believed trade groups such as Logistics UK, the freight transport lobby, and the British International Freight Association (Bifa) were “less worried” about a shortage of customs agents than a few months ago because of growing use of technology. Elizabeth de Jong, policy director at Logistics UK, said the group had been “proactively urging its members to make sure that they and their customers prepare as much as possible for the new trading conditions” after January 1.

    Last month, a survey of Bifa members found that two-thirds of customs brokers said they would not have enough staff to handle the extra paperwork. The survey was sent to Lord Agnew to highlight their concerns.*“The gentleman has selective hearing,” added an industry insider who has been involved in consultations with the government on the future border. [...]

  2. #14882

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    Starmer calls for a circuit breaker lockdown
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...own-on-england

    Keir Starmer has urged the prime minister to impose a two- to three-week national “circuit breaker” lockdown across England to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed, in a dramatic escalation of his criticism of the government’s approach.

    I know I'm a terrible centrist for suggesting it, but this is good politics :
    1. He's clearly right
    2. He'll almost certainly be proven right soon.
    3. This criticism has weight, since Starmer has been somewhat supportive of the Covid plans before.

  3. #14883
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Liberal scum!

  4. #14884
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    Starmer calls for a circuit breaker lockdown
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...own-on-england

    Keir Starmer has urged the prime minister to impose a two- to three-week national “circuit breaker” lockdown across England to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed, in a dramatic escalation of his criticism of the government’s approach.

    I know I'm a terrible centrist for suggesting it, but this is good politics :
    1. He's clearly right
    2. He'll almost certainly be proven right soon.
    3. This criticism has weight, since Starmer has been somewhat supportive of the Covid plans before.
    Yes, it's a good position and it's good politics. Where it falls down is what he's suggesting we DO with that lockdown.

    Lockdowns aren't supposed to end the virus. They never were and anyone who believes they were is kidding themselves. The point of lockdowns is to let you ramp up hospital services, and develop a testing and tracing infrastructure.

    Another lockdown is pointless unless our test and trace is vastly improved, and it won't be vastly improved while it's in the hands of Serco, but Starmer's not suggesting we take it away from Serco because it's not part of his platform to insist that critical infrastructure is run by the country and not by profit mongering private firms.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  5. #14885
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    A lockdown also buys time towards the availability of a vaccine by reducing the number of active infections until the lockdown is lifted.

  6. #14886
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Yes but without coming down on the side of the #KBF lunatics, we can't lockdown until a vaccine is produced. Well, to say we can't is a falsehood - we absolutely could but rich people would make less money and that's not allowed. We can't lockdown until a vaccine is produced and maintain our current economic system which apparently we have to maintain over literally everything else.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  7. #14887
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    A track and trace system that would be good enough so that lockdowns would no longer be needed would also take substantial time to establish, if it indeed is possible.

  8. #14888
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    It's entirely possible, there are countries that have managed it. Our challenges are greater but our resources are also greater, so it shouldn't be beyond us.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  9. #14889

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    Starmer calls for a circuit breaker lockdown
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...own-on-england

    Keir Starmer has urged the prime minister to impose a two- to three-week national “circuit breaker” lockdown across England to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed, in a dramatic escalation of his criticism of the government’s approach.

    I know I'm a terrible centrist for suggesting it, but this is good politics :
    1. He's clearly right
    2. He'll almost certainly be proven right soon.
    3. This criticism has weight, since Starmer has been somewhat supportive of the Covid plans before.
    Yes, it's a good position and it's good politics. Where it falls down is what he's suggesting we DO with that lockdown.

    Lockdowns aren't supposed to end the virus. They never were and anyone who believes they were is kidding themselves. The point of lockdowns is to let you ramp up hospital services, and develop a testing and tracing infrastructure.

    Another lockdown is pointless unless our test and trace is vastly improved, and it won't be vastly improved while it's in the hands of Serco, but Starmer's not suggesting we take it away from Serco because it's not part of his platform to insist that critical infrastructure is run by the country and not by profit mongering private firms.
    The job of the leader of the opposition isn't to put together comprehensive and detailed plans. There's no point - they have no power. He just needs a simple, clear wedge. With him on the right side and the popular side and the government on the other.

  10. #14890
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Yes, he doesn't need to have the nuts and bolts of the plans, but he should have the broad strokes which should include taking vital infrastructure away from private enterprise. He's not talking about it because he doesn't care if it's in the hands of private enterprise or not.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  11. #14891
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    It's entirely possible, there are countries that have managed it. Our challenges are greater but our resources are also greater, so it shouldn't be beyond us.
    Assuming it is possible (I would not bet on any specific western European country to be able to avoid a circuit breaker type lockdown over the winter), the question how long this would take is still important and it won't be done in a few days.

    I do of course agree with the overall sentiment that profit motive has no place in test & trace. I don't think it would be a magic bullet that becomes available in a timely manner as there is a low base to start from.

  12. #14892
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    Starmer calls for a circuit breaker lockdown
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...own-on-england

    Keir Starmer has urged the prime minister to impose a two- to three-week national “circuit breaker” lockdown across England to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed, in a dramatic escalation of his criticism of the government’s approach.

    I know I'm a terrible centrist for suggesting it, but this is good politics :
    1. He's clearly right
    2. He'll almost certainly be proven right soon.
    3. This criticism has weight, since Starmer has been somewhat supportive of the Covid plans before.
    Yes, it's a good position and it's good politics. Where it falls down is what he's suggesting we DO with that lockdown.

    Lockdowns aren't supposed to end the virus. They never were and anyone who believes they were is kidding themselves. The point of lockdowns is to let you ramp up hospital services, and develop a testing and tracing infrastructure.

    Another lockdown is pointless unless our test and trace is vastly improved, and it won't be vastly improved while it's in the hands of Serco, but Starmer's not suggesting we take it away from Serco because it's not part of his platform to insist that critical infrastructure is run by the country and not by profit mongering private firms.
    The job of the leader of the opposition isn't to put together comprehensive and detailed plans. There's no point - they have no power. He just needs a simple, clear wedge. With him on the right side and the popular side and the government on the other.
    his job is to provide a convincing argument, enough that might attract MPs on the other side of the house (and nowadays, the press and social media) that his idea has merit which puts pressure on the PM and ruling party to change tack... Zekk is right, he's just providing soundbites at the moment.

  13. #14893

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    So the deadline for BoJos best deal ever with EU is tomorrow.

  14. #14894

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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    So the deadline for BoJos best deal ever with EU is tomorrow.
    Any guesses as to what it will be?

    No deal and sanctions has worryingly low odds to win at the bookies.

  15. #14895
    Keckers's Avatar
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    It'll probably be one of the worst outcomes possible and brexiters will pretend it's what they wanted all along.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  16. #14896

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    So the deadline for BoJos best deal ever with EU is tomorrow.
    Any guesses as to what it will be?

    No deal and sanctions has worryingly low odds to win at the bookies.
    The deal tomorrow will be...

      Spoiler:
    an extension to the deadline

  17. #14897
    Paradox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    So the deadline for BoJos best deal ever with EU is tomorrow.
    Any guesses as to what it will be?

    No deal and sanctions has worryingly low odds to win at the bookies.
    The deal tomorrow will be...

      Spoiler:
    an extension to the deadline
    Don't often see such optimism from you.

    I've kind of lost track now, do the brexiters still claim this is what they want or are they just sleepwalking at this point?


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  18. #14898

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

    Don't often see such optimism from you.

    I've kind of lost track now, do the brexiters still claim this is what they want or are they just sleepwalking at this point?
    Did you miss Meesters posting? He already said mission accomplished as the UK left the EU January 1:st this year. You know, on paper but not actually. But that didn't matter apparantly.


    This is all fine though, if Brexiters want to string this along still being in the common market but with absolutely no influence who am I to complain?

  19. #14899
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

    Don't often see such optimism from you.

    I've kind of lost track now, do the brexiters still claim this is what they want or are they just sleepwalking at this point?
    Did you miss Meesters posting? He already said mission accomplished as the UK left the EU January 1:st this year. You know, on paper but not actually. But that didn't matter apparantly.


    This is all fine though, if Brexiters want to string this along still being in the common market but with absolutely no influence who am I to complain?
    It's probably the best for both parties. It's certainly hard to argue that our current government should be allowed to run the cake stall at a village fair, let alone have any say in the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  20. #14900

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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post

    The job of the leader of the opposition isn't to put together comprehensive and detailed plans. There's no point - they have no power. He just needs a simple, clear wedge. With him on the right side and the popular side and the government on the other.
    his job is to provide a convincing argument, enough that might attract MPs on the other side of the house (and nowadays, the press and social media) that his idea has merit which puts pressure on the PM and ruling party to change tack... Zekk is right, he's just providing soundbites at the moment.
    Starmer can't convince radically ideological Tory MPs of anything. The current Tory MPs have been selected for loyalty, not independent thinking. He's talking to the public, not to Westminster. Recent events have clearly proven that the public want simple messages, not 12 point plans. Could you fit 'Stop Covid Now' on a mug? Or paint it on a bus?

    All the opposition should be doing is providing soundbites. It's the government who provide policies. This is just another example that Labour leaders are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Even progressives appear to have internalized the 'useless Labour' meme that the media are pushing,
    Last edited by duckduck; October 14 2020 at 02:55:46 PM.

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