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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #19501
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Climate change requires governments to actually grow a spine and ban shit and heavily tax other things. It will be labelled as a "tax on poor", it needs to happen anyway.
    and that requires voters imposing a penalty on governments that wont take action.

  2. #19502
    NoirAvlaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Climate change requires governments to actually grow a spine and ban shit and heavily tax other things. It will be labelled as a "tax on poor", it needs to happen anyway.
    and that requires voters imposing a penalty on governments that wont take action.
    +10 tory points on project failures!
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Also that didn't sound like abloo bloo to me, PM me and we can agree on a meeting spot and settle this with queensberry rules, that's a serious offer btw. I've been a member of this community since 2005 and i've never met a more toxic individual.

  3. #19503
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    heavily tax other things. It will be labelled as a "tax on poor", it needs to happen anyway.
    Won't be a tax on the poor if they tax both the revenue of megacorps AND implement a wealth tax with actual teeth.



    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  4. #19504
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    heavily tax other things. It will be labelled as a "tax on poor", it needs to happen anyway.
    Won't be a tax on the poor if they tax both the revenue of megacorps AND implement a wealth tax with actual teeth.
    In whose benefit do you think these people are governing for?
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  5. #19505
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    heavily tax other things. It will be labelled as a "tax on poor", it needs to happen anyway.
    Won't be a tax on the poor if they tax both the revenue of megacorps AND implement a wealth tax with actual teeth.
    In whose benefit do you think these people are governing for?



    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  6. #19506

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    China is doing a markedly better job of climate adaptation than the "liberal democracies" of the west
    L O L

    Yeah, that's a scary graph - but it needs to be put in the context of China's per capita carbon emissions being relatively low and also the fact that a non-trivial portion of that power is being used to make stuff for the West.
    Also:
    In 2017, investments in renewable energy amounted to US$279.8 billion worldwide, with China accounting for US$126.6 billion or 45% of the global investments. According to researcher Dr Cornelia Tremann, "China has since become the world's largest investor, producer and consumer of renewable energy worldwide, manufacturing state-of-the-art solar panels, wind turbines and hydroelectric energy facilities" as well as becoming the world’s largest producer of electric cars and buses.
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

  7. #19507

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.
    so, is this a roundabout way of saying that "asian people don't deserve higher living standards" ?
    No, it isn't, but thank you for missing the point so I get to make it for you again. China is currently the largest single source of CO2, not because they don't deserve the same living standard as the west, but because they are burning lots of fossil fuel because that is the easiest/cheapest way to provide that standard of living to 1B people. No one is saying they can't do this or that western countries haven't spent the best part of two centuries doing the exact same thing and are now hypocritical in telling poorer nations to stop. We are just pointing out that you are wrong when you praise China for low emissions.

  8. #19508
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    Construction stalls as UK shortage of skilled workers bites
    ‘Build back better’ in jeopardy as projects are hit by delays with supply chains squeezed
    https://www.ft.com/content/e37e2944-...6-9b5c0b70d4eb

    For a straightforward home renovation in Brighton on England’s south coast, builder and architect Phil Wish had to dredge a plumber out of sick leave, press gang his brother-in-law into labouring and do the wiring himself. His predicament speaks to the strains on the construction sector in the wake of Brexit and the exodus of European workers that has taken place during the Covid pandemic. Builders and developers across the UK warn of an acute shortage of skilled tradespeople, including carpenters, bricklayers and plasterers, that is turning prime minister Boris Johnson’s favourite slogan, “build back better,” into something of a joke in the industry. Building projects are stalling and wages are rising as a result of the labour squeeze, while costs are rocketing for materials caught up in the wider disruption to global supply chains. The government’s aim of building 300,000 homes a year looks far from reach without a relaxation of migrant visas and a big domestic training push, according to industry experts.

    “I couldn’t find an electrician for love nor money,” said Wish, adding that if he had waited to secure one, his project would have been held up until next year. “You can’t ‘build back better’ without enough builders.” The dearth of skilled construction workers has been decades in the making, the result of generational shifts away from vocational training and, in Wish’s view, an ingrained snobbery towards the trades: “They’re seen as a last resort for kids who’ve failed to get into university.” The shortfalls have been compounded by the pandemic, which saw a transient workforce rooted to the spot during successive lockdowns, while tens of thousands of skilled workers who had made Britain their home, mostly from eastern Europe, were leaving.

    Meanwhile, Brexit and the end of free movement of people between the UK and Europe has exposed how dependent Britain’s construction sector had become on that migrant labour to plug the gaps. “We have come off a cliff edge,” said Jerry Swain, national officer for construction at Unite the Union. “The industry has relied on foreign labour. It takes at least two years to make a decent bricklayer or carpenter. So now there is a limited pool to draw from.” In the short term this is good news for workers. Bricklayers are commanding £220 and sometimes more a day, compared with £180 before the crisis, according to Swain. Wages are going up across the board.

    The prime minister has argued wage rises are a necessary adjustment on the way to the high-skill, high-wage economy that he says people voted for when they rejected membership of the EU in 2016. But there is a danger that inflationary pressures and the squeeze on labour will instead dampen appetite for new investment. “For construction workers, it is happy days. It is great they are bringing in more money. But you still need 10 bricklayers and we have got eight. The worry is that the workload then shrinks to fit the reduced labour market,” said Swain. There is evidence this is already happening. Construction output has fallen each month since April, when it declined by 2 per cent compared with the year before, according to the Office for National Statistics.

    In its most recent survey, the Federation of Master Builders, the UK trading association for small and medium-sized building businesses, reported that more than half its members were struggling to find the workers they need, FMB officials said. Adrian Swann, a developer in Nottingham in the East Midlands, said work on a 16-house compound in the suburb of Wollaton has been stalled for months. “There is healthy demand in the area [for houses]. But we can’t tell clients when they can look at them or reserve off plan because we can’t guarantee the start date.”

    Phil Stillwell, who runs a depot of Covers Timber and Builders Merchants outside Lewes in East Sussex, said timber prices were stabilising after nearly doubling in a year, but big increases in other materials were on the way. “The cement boys are talking about a 20 per cent increase by November. Plasterboards are also going up by a minimum of 12 per cent in January,” he added.

    The government has resisted pressure to provide more short-term visas to Europeans to ease the labour shortage. But it is far from sure that workers could be enticed back anyway, said Lloyd Baylis, a structural engineer who runs Charter Projects, a home renovation business, half of whose 35-strong Slovakian team have returned home. The focus now, he argued, must be on transforming the image of the industry to draw more young British people back into training. Technology could also help, he said, citing new composite bricks that fit together like Lego, and forgo the need for bricklaying skills.

    A survey by the Homebuilders Federation found that for every 10,000 new houses, 30,000 new recruits are needed, including about 2,500 bricklayers, 1,000 carpenters, and 300 electricians. A year ago, the government set up the “Construction Skills Delivery Group”, with the aim of improving existing training. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad,” the government said. But at present, further education colleges are not turning out anywhere near enough graduates with the right skills, said Jenny Hardman, director of the homebuilding skills partnership at the federation. Apprenticeships only provide part of the answer because the vast majority of people in the sector are self-employed.

    “What we should have been doing for the last five years is preparing for this day,” she said. “There are 60-70,000 young people who could come into construction every year but they don’t,” she said.

  9. #19509
    Keckers's Avatar
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    They didn't have any time over the last 5 years to prepare for this, they were too busy infighting and managing next weeks headlines to do any real governance.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  10. #19510
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  11. #19511
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Construction stalls as UK shortage of skilled workers bites
    ‘Build back better’ in jeopardy as projects are hit by delays with supply chains squeezed
    https://www.ft.com/content/e37e2944-...6-9b5c0b70d4eb

    “I couldn’t find an electrician for love nor money,” said Wish, adding that if he had waited to secure one, his project would have been held up until next year. “You can’t ‘build back better’ without enough builders.” The dearth of skilled construction workers has been decades in the making, the result of generational shifts away from vocational training and, in Wish’s view, an ingrained snobbery towards the trades:


    We are smart. We look for workers to make the economy go. We need more workers.




    Very telling that neither that article or the guy they interview mention how construction took nearly a decade to recover to its pre-2008 output. Think that might have something to do with why people aren't interested.

    Almost as if owners and management class think they can snap their fingers to dismiss their workers, then snap them again to rematerialize them again. Building a skilled workforce actually takes time. If you just dump people when the economy does an oopsie woopsie, and then tell them to fuck off for years, guess what, no one's gonna bother!
    Last edited by mewninn; October 26 2021 at 08:15:19 PM.

  12. #19512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.
    so, is this a roundabout way of saying that "asian people don't deserve higher living standards" ?
    No, it isn't, but thank you for missing the point so I get to make it for you again. China is currently the largest single source of CO2, not because they don't deserve the same living standard as the west, but because they are burning lots of fossil fuel because that is the easiest/cheapest way to provide that standard of living to 1B people. No one is saying they can't do this or that western countries haven't spent the best part of two centuries doing the exact same thing and are now hypocritical in telling poorer nations to stop. We are just pointing out that you are wrong when you praise China for low emissions.
    except i am not, their per capita emissions are lower and set to peak lower than it did in the west, even before adjusting for how globalization has moved the majority of heavy industry to china. they invest much more aggressively in green power generation and transition tech than any other major nation. i struggle to see how your argumentation is not just "CHYNA BAD!" cherry picking. every nation is doing terribly, China, significantly less so.

    there is a increasingly delusional tendency in western media over non-western emission goals, to the point were calls for straight up social-collapse inducing reduction rates are being normalized. and when those gets laughed off as implausible its used to argue that "look, the evil foreigners don't want to do anything, so neither should we!". we're going to see precisely this in action next week at COP26, while the usual suspects sabotages the proceedings.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  13. #19513
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Well at least the more climate summits we do the less carbon we release into the atmosphere after each one.

    Oh wait no the rate of carbon release accelerates every year.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  14. #19514

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    Lallante already posted the per capita development on the last page, so I will assume that one didn't register either, but if that stat is all that matters then I have a great idea to solve global warming: we get 3-4B extra people and place them in mud huts with no power and suddenly the global per capita emissions drop massively!

    The problem is that China, and India for that matter, accounts for 18% of global population with an urbanisation that is still increasing, meaning their power consumption has not peaked. They have gone from 20% in 1990 to 60% in 2020, neatly matching that graph I posted earlier, almost entirely supported by coal. Most western nations are sitting around 80% and so far every region in the world has been following the same curve, albeit on a different time scale. The reason this is a problem specifically with China and India is that their resulting emissions, while not yet on the same per capita as us in the west, though it absolutely will be at the rate and direction they are trending, is backed by over 30% of the total population on the planet, meaning even lower per capita rates are a huge deal. This is not an issue where you have the luxury to be petty and say "well, you started it so now we get a turn", we are all going to have to cut emissions to zero pretty fucking immediately to make any difference over the next century. I'm sorry if that hurts developing countries more, but unless they can start growing gills or find some magical drought resistant crops, they have no other choice.

  15. #19515

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    If Starmer doesn't thank sunak for advance sight of the budget via the daily mail I will be disappointed.

  16. #19516
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    every nation is doing terribly, China, significantly less so.
    China and India are still building new coal plants, approx 50GW and 10GW a year respectively. In September 2021, thermal power generation in China hit an all time record high.

    In 2019 China brought online 83 operational coal plants, India had 15, and THE REST OF THE WORLD PUT TOGETHER had 47

    I love how tankies have switched from "USSR is just misunderstood" to "China is just misunderstood".

    Even the facile "poor countries need an opportunity to grow before they can be expected to meet western standards" bullshit arguments dont really work in this context. China has more emissions/person in its power generation than any western country EVER has.

    Coal commodity prices are currently a record high due to...wait for it.... unprecedented demand in China.

    You tankies' shitty takes are based on ideology and narrative not data.
    Last edited by Lallante; October 28 2021 at 10:28:54 AM.

  17. #19517
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    Aren't multiple EU nations building new coal power stations or is Germany just tearing down old growth forest to supply coal to existing power stations?

    The idea that China is doing any better than other nations in terms of their carbon emissions is laughable, everyone is doing less than the required minimum. No doubt we'll see plenty of ideology and narrative out of this summit instead of data though.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #19518
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Aren't multiple EU nations building new coal power stations or is Germany just tearing down old growth forest to supply coal to existing power stations?
    It is not possible to build new coal power plants in the EU or UK due to emissions regulations. Germany still has coal (dirty lignite) mines but these are shuttering one by one. The exception that you are likely referring to, Hambach mine./forest, but the government passed a law ending that mine expansion in 2020 (and it had not previously expanded since 2018)


    The idea that China is doing any better than other nations in terms of their carbon emissions is laughable, everyone is doing less than the required minimum. No doubt we'll see plenty of ideology and narrative out of this summit instead of data though.
    Agreed. No one should be finger pointing at others and no one should be held up as paragon.

  19. #19519

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    The BBC TERF wars continue. Not reposting the origional article as it's dogshit, but here's a nice measured response.

    https://openletter.earth/an-open-let...ridge-9223a3ca
    Please don't teach me what to do with my pc.

  20. #19520
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itiken View Post
    The BBC TERF wars continue. Not reposting the origional article as it's dogshit, but here's a nice measured response.

    https://openletter.earth/an-open-let...ridge-9223a3ca
    Apparantly a letter from a year in the future? Dated october 2022

    Other than that it seems a totally reasonable letter put in fairly unarguable terms.

    Essentially the whole 'evil trans activists calling people bigots for not wanting to sleep with people with the wrong genitals but right gender for their normal attraction' trope is a total nonsense strawman with no real life relevance, its just used to attack trans people.
    Last edited by Lallante; October 27 2021 at 11:58:57 AM.

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