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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #14821
    Keckers's Avatar
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    That's the nature of parliamentary government.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  2. #14822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Labour is still an active political force.
    They haven't looked like one in 10 years.
    That must be why they get consistently dog piled by every billionaire owned media corporation.
    The same ones who also pick on refugees?

    Punching down is the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  3. #14823
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    Empathy is the biggest threat to tory voter numbers.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  4. #14824

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    The UK infection rate has now been doubling every 10 days for the last 35 days. Hospital admissions with Covid are up 25% in one day, in the latest figures. It just seems very clear that we are at a point where we are going to have hundreds of deaths again soon. The current restrictions don't seem to be working, or at least not working fast enough. But again the government seem to have their heads on the sand.

    This is the point, imo, where we make a choice. Either significantly strengthen the lockdown (e.g. close all bars, restaurants and cafes) or accept the deaths. Both choices are hard, but we can't pretend that we didn't see this coming.

  5. #14825
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    I would argue that Labour supporters would be better served trying to address their party's problems than building straw men.
    It's not a straw man, it's a valid point.

    Labour propose a rational change in the status quo that would directly benefit the poorest people in the country - you know, the people Labour is supposed to be about - and the centrist response is 'but what about the poor ISPs have you thought about the shareholders?'

    You know the ISPs didn't build the infrastructure, right? The state did. When the infrastructure is left to private firms, you get coverage gaps because areas aren't 'viable'. In the example you use, TrueSpeed need 30% of a community to commit to a 50/month package before they'll install, and that's WITH state intervention in the form of the BDUK scheme.
    Last edited by Zekk Pacus; October 6 2020 at 07:21:27 PM.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  6. #14826
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckduck View Post
    The UK infection rate has now been doubling every 10 days for the last 35 days. Hospital admissions with Covid are up 25% in one day, in the latest figures. It just seems very clear that we are at a point where we are going to have hundreds of deaths again soon. The current restrictions don't seem to be working, or at least not working fast enough. But again the government seem to have their heads on the sand.

    This is the point, imo, where we make a choice. Either significantly strengthen the lockdown (e.g. close all bars, restaurants and cafes) or accept the deaths. Both choices are hard, but we can't pretend that we didn't see this coming.
    What? Of course can pretend! In fact I absolutely predict that pretence will be deployed in massive amounts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  7. #14827

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Labour propose a rational change in the status quo that would directly benefit the poorest people in the country - you know, the people Labour is supposed to be about - and the centrist response is 'but what about the poor ISPs have you thought about the shareholders?'

    You know the ISPs didn't build the infrastructure, right? The state did. When the infrastructure is left to private firms, you get coverage gaps because areas aren't 'viable'. In the example you use, TrueSpeed need 30% of a community to commit to a 50/month package before they'll install, and that's WITH state intervention in the form of the BDUK scheme.
    You've literally built a straw man. Virgin have been building their own infrastructure, Truespeed, the example I have, literally build their own infrastructure. Labour, when pressed for details of this plan and asking about the consequences of their promises, simply couldn't answer. They had no idea of the details beyond "we'll buy OpenReach and to hell with everybody else". Another problem people like you have is a complete and utter inability to see any form of shades of grey. I'm not going at it from the perspective of the shareholders, I'm going at it from the perspective of consumer choice. There is a very real risk of the state just crowding out the market and stifling real progress. Yes, there are examples and counter-examples, but Labour's "plan" was paper thin and had very serious potential repercussions that they simply didn't have an answer for. They basically spent the whole election cycle just promising spend upon spend and threw away their credibility (what little Corbyn had by that point). Case in point: the WASPI promise that wasn't at all accounted for in their manifesto.

    But, you know, keep blaming the centrist boogeyman if it makes you feel better for the terrible performance of your "team".

  8. #14828

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    Hey, don't build straw men, I'll instead oversimplify things and keep accusing you of things I made up!

  9. #14829

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Hey, don't build straw men, I'll instead oversimplify things and keep accusing you of things I made up!
    Isyel making a content less post?! So out of character!

  10. #14830
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    I'm not going at it from the perspective of the shareholders, I'm going at it from the perspective of consumer choice. There is a very real risk of the state just crowding out the market and stifling real progress.
    noooooo not the heckin' consumer choicerinos!!!!

  11. #14831
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    There is a very real risk of the state just crowding out the market and stifling real progress.
    I live in London.

    Unless I'm willing to pay for fibre (which in fairness I am but not everyone is or can afford to), my speed caps out at 3mbps.

    Please, Labour, don't stifle all this progress the free market is giving us!

    Also, what choice? I can buy fibre from six different companies but it all goes to the same backbone - OpenReach.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  12. #14832
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    There is a very real risk of the state just crowding out the market and stifling real progress.
    I live in London.

    Unless I'm willing to pay for fibre (which in fairness I am but not everyone is or can afford to), my speed caps out at 3mbps.

    Please, Labour, don't stifle all this progress the free market is giving us!

    Also, what choice? I can buy fibre from six different companies but it all goes to the same backbone - OpenReach.
    how in the hell? i live (not for long, but still) in the middle of fucking nowhere in the peak district and i'm getting 50 down/5-10 up on cheapo fibre through plusnet



    ed - oh missed the bit where you said you don't pay for fibre, but wouldnt have a problem with doing so

    i mean just get it, don't complain about your broadband if you can afford fibre...
    Last edited by teds :D; October 7 2020 at 12:07:17 AM.

  13. #14833
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    I have fibre. It was just an example. There are plenty of places in the country like that, and even more places where there just is no fibre (and that's before we talk about oddities like Hull).

    The whole point is that the infrastructure that was built and paid for by us should be owned and operated by us, not farmed out to private companies. Perhaps it's a bit ambitious to put it in a manifesto, but I'd rather have it in there as a target to aim for than go 'well it's hard, so....better things aren't possible'.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  14. #14834
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    I have fibre. It was just an example. There are plenty of places in the country like that, and even more places where there just is no fibre (and that's before we talk about oddities like Hull).

    The whole point is that the infrastructure that was built and paid for by us should be owned and operated by us, not farmed out to private companies. Perhaps it's a bit ambitious to put it in a manifesto, but I'd rather have it in there as a target to aim for than go 'well it's hard, so....better things aren't possible'.
    el capitano's example isn't wrong - large enough portions of the network have been built by other groups - virgin being the main one, and there's plenty of community or local council funded ones that didn't simply tap into openreach. his example of a crap unthought-through policy is true.

    now, i personally would be a big big fan (having always lived rural pretty much) of a more centralised way supplying connections, and it not be based on examples like 'you need 60% of the village to vote for it' - especially now with homeworking likely to be the normal, but just trying to lead on nationalising the internet with no detail as a key policy is simply shit politics.

  15. #14835
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Whatever.

    The policy's in the manifesto.

    It's no more or less detailed as a manifesto policy than any of the policies in the 2010 or 2015 manifestos that didn't get anything like this level of inspection from people.

    It's amazing how the greatest level of scrutiny on all Labour's policies came during Corbyn's era. Keir Starmer literally has no policies except to say 'well that's not what we would do, but it's important that we Support The Government' but I suppose it's much more important to keep shitting on Corbyn, lest the left ever get ideas ever again.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  16. #14836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    ...any of the policies in the 2010 or 2015 manifestos that didn't get anything like this level of inspection from people.
    This is rubbish. The incoherent bits of both were thoroughly trashed just as much.

    I do agree it would be great if "the left" got some ideas and someone able to effectively communicate them though.
    Quote Originally Posted by cucaldvida View Post
    ...suck on the devices of the callow people...

  17. #14837
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    They were trashed by the opposition, sure.

    By 'centrists', for want of a better word? Not so much. As evidenced by the fact that following on from those two poor performances, they said 'hey, you know what they say, third time's the charm, let's wheel out Burnham to mouth some platitudes about how we've got to be tough on benefits this time'.

    Meh, I'm rehashing the same old shite here. What's the point.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  18. #14838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    ...any of the policies in the 2010 or 2015 manifestos that didn't get anything like this level of inspection from people.
    This is rubbish. The incoherent bits of both were thoroughly trashed just as much.

    I do agree it would be great if "the left" got some ideas and someone able to effectively communicate them though.
    The Corbyn left had ideas such as nationalization of utilities and a green industrial policy. Do they suck? are they shitty? idk, im not a brit but i apparently know more than you lol.

    It's great though that both our countries have a large educated middle class who participate in politics yet don't know what they want from politics.

  19. #14839
    Keckers's Avatar
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    They want whatever the media tells them they are allowed to have.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  20. #14840
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    ...any of the policies in the 2010 or 2015 manifestos that didn't get anything like this level of inspection from people.
    This is rubbish. The incoherent bits of both were thoroughly trashed just as much.

    I do agree it would be great if "the left" got some ideas and someone able to effectively communicate them though.
    The Corbyn left had ideas such as nationalization of utilities and a green industrial policy. Do they suck? are they shitty? idk
    And the communication was handled extraordinarily shittily, resulting in a landslide for the Conservatives.
    Outstanding work.

    I mean, sure, we could outsource all responsibility for managing a successful political program and pretend our failures were entirely down to the "MSM"/"the elite"/"international globalists", so we can carry on bitching without having to actually put the work in to fix anything, but idk if thats particularly useful for the country.

    Rofflecopter megameight.
    Quote Originally Posted by cucaldvida View Post
    ...suck on the devices of the callow people...

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