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Thread: Dos Dedos Mis Amigos (USA Civil Unrest Thread)

  1. #2721
    Liare's Avatar
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    okay, so time for some doom and gloom.

    there is a small and shrinking window wherein decisive political action can prevent the situation from spiralling out of control, it requires a firm and believable committent to nationwide police reform, and replacing the police with national guard for a couple of days, in all major US cities affected by protesting. not in cooperation with local police, flat out replacement in all capacities related to the protests. on one hand, that satisfies the demands, it opens the door to "this needs to change" on the other hand it firmly commits to the restoration of law and order. it would defuse the situation and give the conservatives what they want, while also taking the police out of the limelight. this a high risk approach and is going to leave neither the far left or the far right happy. but the alternative is to go further down the spiral of violence that ends up at civil war.

    but that's not going to happen, i think we all know why and how that's not going to happen and the situation is, at best, 3-7 shootings away from going completely over the hill and become functionally impossible to recover from. there's a long road to actual civil war still, but it's the opening stages of militia groups forming and having at it with the obvious hotspot being the pacific north west. i figure that stage is going to kick off in Portland as the PPB objects to armed protesters open-carrying en mass and the situation escalating from there.

    i doubt there will be any distinction made between far right militiia and law enforcement, especially considering how the PPB has actively colluded with and supported Patriot Prayer et.al. over the last couple of years.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  2. #2722
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Why would you imagine men with long guns and no crowd control training at all being deployed would make things better? The National Guard isn't a force that will handle this much better, they could kill alot more people alot faster though.

  3. #2723
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Ok guess there's nothing to be done and America is gonna have a civil war then huh

  4. #2724
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    Those are the only two viable options, meet High Prophet Liare's demands or immediate martial law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush
    idiotic posts out of context

  5. #2725
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    You have been ranting non stop and I can barely tell what you are angry about anymore. You and Liare are full on "civil war is here" and it's fucking insane that you are so delusional as to think the National Guard should just be blanketed across the country lol. That's your solution to this shit show? Didn't help last time, and just because you have strange feelings towards whatever you think of as the left here, doesn't mean you are right about it all. The country is huge, some spots might need the guard, most probably just need local and state officials to stop bending over to right wing miltias and fear mongering and make direct sudden change if they can, and if they can't, do whatever they can to instill a sense of hope for a better future instead of a hellscape.

    Honestly thogh I have no idea what the fuck it is you are ranting about usually because you've been really mad about things here yet are disconnected from so many realities not on TV. I guess it's easy to think everywhere looks like Kenosha, but it really doesn't. It might one day but the fucking reality is you are consuming the media being pumped out as if it's all that happens to the average american everyday. Maybe I'm not understanding your posts but it's like you are mad people are fighting and surprised after decades of right wing milita growth, and centuries of oppression that there'd be consequences. Please climb up and start talking about class warfare to a crowd of maskless retards with no sense of reality though, I am sure they will be the first to take up the socialist movement!

  6. #2726
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    They have been cast aside (economically) for decades and you're surprised they were easily scooped up and brainwashed by neofascists. It's too late to turn this truck around now. This is neoliberalism working as intended.

    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; August 30 2020 at 12:09:09 PM.

  7. #2727
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    So....not a response at all.

    Also lol at being black and being racist are equal standing issues. Plenty of poor white people aren't racist retards.

  8. #2728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    So....not a response at all.
    What's there to respond to? You're just saying we're stupid and out of touch and don't know what the fuck we're talking about. Fine. Enjoy your escalating violence I guess. It's way too late to turn back now, the dominoes started falling a decade ago during the Obama administration when any attempt at working class organization was crushed by identity politics. There is no way out of this situation anymore.

  9. #2729
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  10. #2730
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    Oh fuck she said something real about how the DNC is leaving the youth and workers behind, we're gonna leave it there!

  11. #2731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Oh fuck she said something real about how the DNC is leaving the youth and workers behind, we're gonna leave it there!
    No doubt some producer who's like Nancy Pelosi's grand-nephew is screaming in his earbud to wrap it up.

  12. #2732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Why would you imagine men with long guns and no crowd control training at all being deployed would make things better? The National Guard isn't a force that will handle this much better, they could kill alot more people alot faster though.
    im not, it's the high risk aspect i am alluding to.

    but it's critical because A : the perceptional difference between cop and right wing militia is shrinking rapidly, the most radical, most likely to take up premeditated violence, have already functionally concluded that this is the case and the viewpoint is becoming mainstream among protesters. B : such an announcement would fuck over law enforcement fiercely, it's a rejection of a century of policing tactics and they have definite incentive to outright try to sabotage things, they routinely do so already. C: it draws a stern line in the sand, "we're willing to compromise, but this goes no further."

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikar View Post
    Those are the only two viable options, meet High Prophet Liare's demands or immediate martial law.
    you've got the opening stages of a cycle of violence happening in front of your eyes, either you nip it in the bud or it escalates beyond all control.

    but what else do you think could be done then ? i would like to be wrong but the "mechanistic" elements are all there plain to see, self-sustaining civil unrest, escalating tensions among highly polarized political groupings and now outright violence in what looks a lot like "tit for tat" exchanges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    You have been ranting non stop and I can barely tell what you are angry about anymore. You and Liare are full on "civil war is here" and it's fucking insane that you are so delusional as to think the National Guard should just be blanketed across the country lol. That's your solution to this shit show? Didn't help last time, and just because you have strange feelings towards whatever you think of as the left here, doesn't mean you are right about it all.
    actually it did help, the one consistent result of deploying the national guard was not the protests dispersed, but that suddenly the place was no longer blanketed in teargas and rioting because the guard took a more conservative approach to events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    The country is huge, some spots might need the guard, most probably just need local and state officials to stop bending over to right wing miltias and fear mongering and make direct sudden change if they can, and if they can't, do whatever they can to instill a sense of hope for a better future instead of a hellscape.
    that's kinda the point, what's the difference between right wing militia and law enforcement now ? the takeaway from a lot of places is that "cop and klan goes hand in hand" remains as true as it ever did and that perception is spreading and starting to become normalized. it's been 90 days, if the "other side" was willing to compromise, they would have done so already is very much the takeaway i have gotten from the more militant americans i have contact with, the only thing they've been able to do is to continue protesting and that has in turn racketed up the tensions to where we are now. the thing they're not going to do is to back down and go home, momentum is on their side and they're going to try to capitalize on it to get as far as they can, anything else would be unconscionable.

    even if Billybob PD is not in bed with the militias, even if they're decent honest cops, it's not going to matter when the broad perception is that the whole institution is rotten to the core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Honestly thogh I have no idea what the fuck it is you are ranting about usually because you've been really mad about things here yet are disconnected from so many realities not on TV. I guess it's easy to think everywhere looks like Kenosha, but it really doesn't. It might one day but the fucking reality is you are consuming the media being pumped out as if it's all that happens to the average american everyday. Maybe I'm not understanding your posts but it's like you are mad people are fighting and surprised after decades of right wing milita growth, and centuries of oppression that there'd be consequences. Please climb up and start talking about class warfare to a crowd of maskless retards with no sense of reality though, I am sure they will be the first to take up the socialist movement!
    "everywhere" doesn't need too look like Kenosha, things do not divide along neat battle lines like in the American civil war, it's a gradual regionalized breakdown that spreads
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  13. #2733
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    The range of leftists thought, and alistair claims its group think and hes all alone lol.

    Sincerely hope you both look like fools come next year.

    I'll either thrive or die right off the bat in a civil war. Id rather it never happened.

  14. #2734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    The range of leftists thought, and alistair claims its group think and hes all alone lol.

    Sincerely hope you both look like fools come next year.

    I'll either thrive or die right off the bat in a civil war. Id rather it never happened.
    i would like to be wrong, but the underlying factors and how they interact don't lie, it's been brewing for years.

    of course, i will happily admit that its possible that, somehow, there's no further escalating violence in relation to the protests, that Trump uses the Kenosha speech on Tuesday to somehow bridge the increasingly large gap and establish some sort of national consensus moving forward. maybe heck Biden surprises the world and does that rather than hiding in a basement or whatever he's actually up to.

    but i don't see it happening, all i see is more gas being poured on the fire as the window to actually do that and prevent the violence from becoming self-sustaining closes. of course, a violence spiral doesn't automatically mean urban guerilla movements forming, but it's by far the most likely outcome when the state is an active participant.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  15. #2735
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    No Liare, a Biden administration will plaster over the giant gaping wounds in US society that were ripped wide open after the 2008 financial crisis.

    This is just a temporary moment until November when it will all go away once Trump is removed from office.


  16. #2736
    Movember 2012 I Legionnaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    No Liare, a Biden administration will plaster over the giant gaping wounds in US society that were ripped wide open after the 2008 financial crisis.

    This is just a temporary moment until November when it will all go away once Trump is removed from office.

    This is going to look pretty bad when Trump wins in November.

    All BS aside, I don't think the US is going to end up with more widespread unrest than there already is. The white middle class still has too much to lose. There aren't many people (if any) who's situation would be improved by killing their countrymen.

  17. #2737
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Legionnaire View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    No Liare, a Biden administration will plaster over the giant gaping wounds in US society that were ripped wide open after the 2008 financial crisis.

    This is just a temporary moment until November when it will all go away once Trump is removed from office.

    This is going to look pretty bad when Trump wins in November.

    All BS aside, I don't think the US is going to end up with more widespread unrest than there already is. The white middle class still has too much to lose. There aren't many people (if any) who's situation would be improved by killing their countrymen.
    Middle class in general are the ones stuck in, shockingly, the middle. Its not implausible that you have mobs vs police in pitched gun battles the US police are trained to deal with only by bringing vastly overwhelming force to bear against that they dont have, and some genius "sending in the guard" with orders to shoot first that some of them refuse, then you have some idiot shooting at people who're trying to de-escalate, gun battles where enough people in uniform think their leaders are trying to do the wrong thing that someone in uniform points a gun at someone else in uniform, and you have a total shitshow as everything disintegrates.

    Its also entirely plausible that some people riot, poor people fight each other ove the fallout of rich people being shitters and some middle class people lose all their shit and get fucked over by insurance companies working to minimise their losses "your house was inside a zone declared not under police control, sorry, thats actually an exception in your contract, oops, no money to replace your burned stuff" and its just bad times for everyone and then goes back to business as usual.

    Theres no good outcome available, though.

  18. #2738
    Movember 2012 I Legionnaire's Avatar
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    Middle class in general are the ones stuck in, shockingly, the middle. Its not implausible that you have mobs vs police in pitched gun battles the US police are trained to deal with only by bringing vastly overwhelming force to bear against that they dont have, and some genius "sending in the guard" with orders to shoot first that some of them refuse, then you have some idiot shooting at people who're trying to de-escalate, gun battles where enough people in uniform think their leaders are trying to do the wrong thing that someone in uniform points a gun at someone else in uniform, and you have a total shitshow as everything disintegrates.
    If it was going to happen it would have the first time the guard got called up earlier this summer.

  19. #2739
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    That doesn't follow. Seems to me the problem of unit reliability persists as long as the unrest does.

  20. #2740
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Legionnaire View Post
    All BS aside, I don't think the US is going to end up with more widespread unrest than there already is. The white middle class still has too much to lose. There aren't many people (if any) who's situation would be improved by killing their countrymen.
    insurrection, for lack of a better term, usually does not include the broad middle class off the bat. it's far more likely that you're going to see "urban guerillas" operating out of poor black neighbourhoods in conjunction with local street gangs to push the police and militias allied with the police out of the city bloc by bloc melting away when a concerted response is brought forth.

    historically, law enforcement are going to be heavy handed, and in case of america, it's invariably going to be excessively heavy handed and they're quickly going to morph into outright paramilitary groups who wage war, not figuratively, on these neighbourhoods and the people in it and it's going to get ugly. the precious middle class you allude to is dragged in during this process, either in support or against, but the brunt of the initial blows inevitably fall on the poorest of all and only really brought home to "middle america" as anonymous "security troops" knock down doors to drag out "collaborators".

    that's the thing with insurrection, you don't get to vote on it, once the ball is rolling it becomes self-sustaining incredibly quickly, it's not about who has the most to lose or the most to gain. once the jackboots are on the ground the response becomes one of survival for those it's stepping on, do you think Bubba McBrainfart III is going to give two shits about if that black dude over there has actually done anything as they conduct a raid in retaliation for a couple of cops being lured into a ambush ? the "rules and norms" went out the window months ago when the Militia and Protesters started flat out murdering each other on the regular, ain't nobody going to give Bubba grief for putting a couple of rounds into him.

    so that Black guy ? he's the enemy regardless of what he might believe, as the confrontation spreads, this dynamic spreads with it, formerly nice, middle class neighbourhoods gradually become battlegrounds with predictable results, the definition of enemy, on both sides, shifts and morphs right along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    That doesn't follow. Seems to me the problem of unit reliability persists as long as the unrest does.
    i read numerous posts and stuff about National Guardsmen basically being given a out if they did not want to participate, the army has gone "we're not getting involved in this mess" repeatedly because they know it's a powerkeg with a lit fuse.
    Last edited by Liare; August 30 2020 at 08:58:06 PM.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

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