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Thread: Ukraine: Russian Invasion

  1. #21201
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    They're both still propaganda under the extremely normal definition of the term. I'm not sure what you're getting all emotional about, nobody here is claiming both sides are the same.

    It's cool to see myth making like the ghost of kiev in real time.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  2. #21202
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    They're both still propaganda under the extremely normal definition of the term. I'm not sure what you're getting all emotional about, nobody here is claiming both sides are the same.

    It's cool to see myth making like the ghost of kiev in real time.
    They are technically both propaganda, but what of it? True propaganda is morally good.

  3. #21203

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    I like more the Russian narrative that NATO arming Ukraine prolongs the war and brings more killings and destruction to population. Russia cares.
    In terms of propaganda, the form is different but the message is the same:


  4. #21204

  5. #21205
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post

    They are technically both propaganda, but what of it?
    Nothing, but I'm not the one getting my knickers in a twist about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    True propaganda is morally good.
    Moral positions are relative to a given frame of reference.

    Russia is a heavily hypernormalised society that has an information environment parallel to reality. Fake news is their largest cultural output. Of course their propaganda is going to be wildly inaccurate.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  6. #21206

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so it´s their fault too.
    Yeah, they should stop doing that. It will work out ok for them in the end, right?
    I think they should just give them the eastern half of the country with all the stuff and people in it and sign away any right to reform the rest and join NATO or the EU with a russian appointed head of state and they could be free again right away. But no, Ukraine choose war...
    Hahahahahaha. Well, it didn't take long for useful idiots to wipe from their memory that Putin was aiming to annex entire Ukraine PLUS Transnistria. The army near Kiev was on a country picnic, da comrade?

    And when was there a choice for Ukraine to be made? Can you please point out the date? Because as far as I remember they were simply invaded overnight no questions asked.

    Well I take what I said above about Ukraine wining on propaganda front back. Turns out russian is still as effective as ever.
    Pretty sure that was sarcasm from Kilabi mate
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  7. #21207
    rufuske's Avatar
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    I sure hope so.

  8. #21208
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    In this timeline i am not even surprised a shitpost like that could be taken seriously. Nearly proud of it.

  9. #21209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so it´s their fault too.
    Yeah, they should stop doing that. It will work out ok for them in the end, right?
    I think they should just give them the eastern half of the country with all the stuff and people in it and sign away any right to reform the rest and join NATO or the EU with a russian appointed head of state and they could be free again right away. But no, Ukraine choose war...
    Hahahahahaha. Well, it didn't take long for useful idiots to wipe from their memory that Putin was aiming to annex entire Ukraine PLUS Transnistria. The army near Kiev was on a country picnic, da comrade?

    And when was there a choice for Ukraine to be made? Can you please point out the date? Because as far as I remember they were simply invaded overnight no questions asked.

    Well I take what I said above about Ukraine wining on propaganda front back. Turns out russian is still as effective as ever.
    Pretty sure that was sarcasm from Kilabi mate
    Not so fun fact: a group of German older intellectuals actually wrote an open letter to Zelensky that basically told him to surrender. It was headed by Alice Schwarzer who has been the leading feminist in Germany for the past 50 or so years. The letter published in her magazine Emma, which is the bastion of feminism. This Guardian article explains the whole situation and the generational divide behind this.

    I feel like Kilabi sort of referred to that. It went through German language media.

    Side note: love the Guardian, no paywall and I can copy their articles freely for class. My A-level students have those as additional material, most schoolbooks and state exams will use Guardian articles as well.
    nevar forget

  10. #21210
    Alistair's Avatar
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    So, how long till Germany sells out/fucks Poland along with the Russians again?


  11. #21211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so it´s their fault too.
    Yeah, they should stop doing that. It will work out ok for them in the end, right?
    I think they should just give them the eastern half of the country with all the stuff and people in it and sign away any right to reform the rest and join NATO or the EU with a russian appointed head of state and they could be free again right away. But no, Ukraine choose war...
    Hahahahahaha. Well, it didn't take long for useful idiots to wipe from their memory that Putin was aiming to annex entire Ukraine PLUS Transnistria. The army near Kiev was on a country picnic, da comrade?

    And when was there a choice for Ukraine to be made? Can you please point out the date? Because as far as I remember they were simply invaded overnight no questions asked.

    Well I take what I said above about Ukraine wining on propaganda front back. Turns out russian is still as effective as ever.
    Pretty sure that was sarcasm from Kilabi mate
    Not so fun fact: a group of German older intellectuals actually wrote an open letter to Zelensky that basically told him to surrender. It was headed by Alice Schwarzer who has been the leading feminist in Germany for the past 50 or so years. The letter published in her magazine Emma, which is the bastion of feminism. This Guardian article explains the whole situation and the generational divide behind this.

    I feel like Kilabi sort of referred to that. It went through German language media.

    Side note: love the Guardian, no paywall and I can copy their articles freely for class. My A-level students have those as additional material, most schoolbooks and state exams will use Guardian articles as well.
    Yup, heard it echoed from a pensionen Infantrie-Truppeninspektor, General basically. Went it´s round on facebook and some old "Kameraden" of mine actually reshared it. Told ´em they are idiots and I am shocked a western soldier who got his training in the ´90s would argue that the proper response to a russian invasion would be to just give up half the country.

    "Frieden für die Ukraine, nicht frieren für die Ukraine"
    Peace for Ukraine but don´t freeze for Ukraine"

    was their slogan. Because "oh noes my heating bill". Fucking mongrels.

  12. #21212
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    I didn't read that open letter in the magazine Emma but to note a few days later there was another open letter with the opposite opinion. Anyway what is really interesting that the Green party base didn't revolted, contrary to that even supported the move, when the Germany gov decided to deliver weapons and later on heavy weapons. The green party is part of the German gov and has it's roots in the 70/80s peace movement and anti nuclear power.

    Some Green party members notable from the peace movement wing when interviewed voiced that they realized, paraphrasing here, peace in our current times need weapons.
    Does a population have informed consent when that population is not taught the inner workings of its monetary system, and then is drawn, all unknowing, into economic adventures?

  13. #21213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    I didn't read that open letter in the magazine Emma but to note a few days later there was another open letter with the opposite opinion. Anyway what is really interesting that the Green party base didn't revolted, contrary to that even supported the move, when the Germany gov decided to deliver weapons and later on heavy weapons. The green party is part of the German gov and has it's roots in the 70/80s peace movement and anti nuclear power.

    Some Green party members notable from the peace movement wing when interviewed voiced that they realized, paraphrasing here, peace in our current times need weapons.
    Yeah.

    The Guardian article I linked describes a change in attitude in Germany based on generations. The younger generation realizes that unconditional pacifism doesn't work. I personally know one or two of those that still cling to that, but among the younger they are the minority.

    Also keep in mind that the Green party's first government participation happened during the war in Bosnia and Kosovo. The foreign minister Joschka Fischer was a Green party member that belonged to the 68 student revolt generation. He pushed through the Bundeswehr participation in combat, the first time German forces fought since '45, true "only Nixon could go to China" stuff.

    So to answer your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    So, how long till Germany sells out/fucks Poland along with the Russians again?
    Never. We've agreed that people like Alice Schwarzer are insane. Keep in mind the average age of the people that signed her letter was 76.
    nevar forget

  14. #21214

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    In the meantime,

    There are reports of another Russian ship on fire in the Black Sea, according to Ukrainian officials.

    Anton Gerashchenko, Adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, was told by his sources that the ship was hit, and a fire started on Thursday.

    "Russia lost another ship in the Black Sea," Gerashchenko said. "It is brand new auxiliary ship of project 23120 Vsevolod Bobrov."

  15. #21215
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    So, how long till Germany sells out/fucks Poland along with the Russians again?
    I'm not sure that's an option here. Poland is clearly itching to join in, and if the Russian forces are barely holding their own against the Ukraine, then Poland joining in as an active participant with another couple hundred thousand troops and NATO-standard gear would start a failcascade pretty quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  16. #21216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    In the meantime,

    There are reports of another Russian ship on fire in the Black Sea, according to Ukrainian officials.

    Anton Gerashchenko, Adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, was told by his sources that the ship was hit, and a fire started on Thursday.

    "Russia lost another ship in the Black Sea," Gerashchenko said. "It is brand new auxiliary ship of project 23120 Vsevolod Bobrov."
    Ukraine seems to be taking great pleasure in slapping the Black Sea fleet in descending order of cost to build.

    BTW I encourage all here to read the wiki page on Snake Island. That is a very high density of history per hectare. Really interesting read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  17. #21217
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    The specter of genocide and ethnic cleansing has yet again returned to Europe


  18. #21218

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    Russian ships carrying stolen Ukrainian grain turned away from Mediterranean ports -- but not all of them

    Russian grain ships, carrying stolen Ukrainian grain, are valid targets?

  19. #21219

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    In the meantime,

    There are reports of another Russian ship on fire in the Black Sea, according to Ukrainian officials.

    Anton Gerashchenko, Adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, was told by his sources that the ship was hit, and a fire started on Thursday.

    "Russia lost another ship in the Black Sea," Gerashchenko said. "It is brand new auxiliary ship of project 23120 Vsevolod Bobrov."
    Ukraine seems to be taking great pleasure in slapping the Black Sea fleet in descending order of cost to build.

    BTW I encourage all here to read the wiki page on Snake Island. That is a very high density of history per hectare. Really interesting read.
    Has the clip of the ukrainian bombing run been posted yet? That place is *tiny*.

    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...27490230444035

  20. #21220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Russian ships carrying stolen Ukrainian grain turned away from Mediterranean ports -- but not all of them

    Russian grain ships, carrying stolen Ukrainian grain, are valid targets?
    Why target them at sea when you can promise to buy the grain and then simply seize it and the ship when they dock? It has the appeal of "fuck you Russian ship" and ironic Maskirovka...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

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