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Thread: The Eastern Front: (Kalevala/Geminate/Etherium/Perrigen Falls)

  1. #381
    Keckers's Avatar
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    It would have been interesting to see the effect of the jump drive changes with dominion sov with no mention at all of fozzie sov which effectviely froze everyone for 6 months.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  2. #382

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    I think one of the problems with Fozzie sov is that most of us aren't quite sure how we're supposed to be playing the sov game.
    Yeah yeah, it's a sandbox, and you can do whatever you want, but you can also fit lasers to a brutix. It's not a very good idea most of the time, and CCP designed the ship with something else in mind, but you can do it.

    A lot of people with a lot of very different views on what nullsec should look like all called for some kind of occupancy sov, and CCP eventually gave it to us. The problem is they didn't really tell us what they had in mind when they gave it to us, so none of us know which 'faction' they actually sided with, or who's actually "doing it right".

    If there was a simple "here's how we (CCP) think sov should be done", the same way there are fitting bonuses on a ship to let you know what's most effective on the ship/how it was designed to work, most of us could probably adapt and live with whatever system they implement. Then people could try to go with the flow, or push against it and make unconventional things work, but when you don't know what you're doing is unconventional/not as intended, it just seems hard.

  3. #383
    Keckers's Avatar
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    I guess most pvp groups are also somewhat resistant to take part in a sov system that requires a fair amount of PvE to increase indexes.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  4. #384

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smarnca View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    Also, if sov is such shit now why are you not only still there doing it, but taking more when you don't use or rent what you already have? There is an easy solution to sov mechanics being shit, stop putting entosis links on ships in your fleets.
    Maybe they want fights? Why are Snuff and Shadow killing each other over moons? Do you seriously think that Snuff lost 100bil in one fight just because they wanted that Cadmium really badly?

    Garst what if they would add some way for you to DPS the node? Like on citadels where DPS is capped at 4k ?
    Part of the problem is that there are way too many nodes, and that a single node itself is completely worthless. If you had to DPS them it would just come down to how many you can DPS without being bothered, and instead of fighting over a node you just move to the next one like is currently the case.

    Many people were hoping that the node mechanics would force a new meta that put more emphasis on tactics and positioning, but the reality is the easiest way to defend a system is to spam cheap entosis ships and run around in gank squads avoiding any kind of fight.

    A single node needs to be worth fighting over and at the same time you still want to split them up over the constellation to break up the blob, so I think that additionally to enabling RR on entosis ships they need to limit the number of nodes and make it a kind of best out of 3/5/7 (maybe scalable by ADM).

    With the current situation its only a matter of time before it devolves into Slippery Petes vs Slippery Petes and hordes of t1 entosis vexors.

  5. #385

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smarnca View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    Also, if sov is such shit now why are you not only still there doing it, but taking more when you don't use or rent what you already have? There is an easy solution to sov mechanics being shit, stop putting entosis links on ships in your fleets.
    Maybe they want fights? Why are Snuff and Shadow killing each other over moons? Do you seriously think that Snuff lost 100bil in one fight just because they wanted that Cadmium really badly?

    Garst what if they would add some way for you to DPS the node? Like on citadels where DPS is capped at 4k ?
    Maybe they do want fights? Let's analyze that a bit further.

    1. I am in chat channels with frsd and Pat, and read Garst's posts here, and I am reminded almost daily that sov wanding does not lead to fights. That being said saying they want fights then entosing stuff would be like me saying I want PVP then joining a HS mining corp. Yes, CODE may come PVP me every once in a while, but I am not putting myself in a good position to get what I claim to want.

    2. If they truly wanted fights why would they remove the one hostile entity willing to fight with them in their general area from their sov? This would be like Snuff kicking SC out of Aeschee, I know this is not possible, instead of just shooting their moons.

    3. If they truly wanted fights why would they bring more than what they know their enemy is willing to engage? When I was in TRI, and we were fighting with RA, everyone knew that they didn't like to fight unless they had the numbers superiority. We often took fights outnumbered because we knew that was the only way we would get a fight. We won some, and lost some, but we got fights, and I think most everyone enjoyed them. Now in virtually every BR the XIX side outnumbers the RMC side.

    I am willing to admit that Garst, and possibly many others in TRI, do want the fights, BUT I can assure you that XDeath and Solar are not in Insmother for the good fights. They are there to make a point to another RUS alliance that dared to not join in with them. The punishment for RA first helping TRI/Solar to take XIX sov, then for turning their back on Solar and no longer helping, is loss of sov by way of blob. TRI just has the misfortune of being blue to 2 entities who want to remove RA from the map, but it is much easier to say boo hoo Aegis sov.

  6. #386
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelinaHavoc View Post
    I'd argue that having the opportunity to plant your flag and put your name on the map is a rather large compelling reason. Having your name on the map is probably the most compelling reason for anyone in Eve to do anything that really matters.


    Tell that to all the people that have been in lowsec, highsec (R-v-B), w-space, NPC null and NPSI communities.

    Fighting for fun is the most compelling thing in Eve. Taking on the odds and winning/doing better than expected.

    Having their corp's name in a specific place on the map has always been meaningless to most. There's no possible other conclusion given how many players exist, how many corps exist, and how few systems actually have been held by anyone actually caring about that specific place (e.g. rather than having been told they're getting somewhere 1 constellation over).
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  7. #387
    Garst Tyrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smarnca View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    Also, if sov is such shit now why are you not only still there doing it, but taking more when you don't use or rent what you already have? There is an easy solution to sov mechanics being shit, stop putting entosis links on ships in your fleets.
    Maybe they want fights? Why are Snuff and Shadow killing each other over moons? Do you seriously think that Snuff lost 100bil in one fight just because they wanted that Cadmium really badly?

    Garst what if they would add some way for you to DPS the node? Like on citadels where DPS is capped at 4k ?
    Maybe they do want fights? Let's analyze that a bit further.

    1. I am in chat channels with frsd and Pat, and read Garst's posts here, and I am reminded almost daily that sov wanding does not lead to fights. That being said saying they want fights then entosing stuff would be like me saying I want PVP then joining a HS mining corp. Yes, CODE may come PVP me every once in a while, but I am not putting myself in a good position to get what I claim to want.

    2. If they truly wanted fights why would they remove the one hostile entity willing to fight with them in their general area from their sov? This would be like Snuff kicking SC out of Aeschee, I know this is not possible, instead of just shooting their moons.

    3. If they truly wanted fights why would they bring more than what they know their enemy is willing to engage? When I was in TRI, and we were fighting with RA, everyone knew that they didn't like to fight unless they had the numbers superiority. We often took fights outnumbered because we knew that was the only way we would get a fight. We won some, and lost some, but we got fights, and I think most everyone enjoyed them. Now in virtually every BR the XIX side outnumbers the RMC side.

    I am willing to admit that Garst, and possibly many others in TRI, do want the fights, BUT I can assure you that XDeath and Solar are not in Insmother for the good fights. They are there to make a point to another RUS alliance that dared to not join in with them. The punishment for RA first helping TRI/Solar to take XIX sov, then for turning their back on Solar and no longer helping, is loss of sov by way of blob. TRI just has the misfortune of being blue to 2 entities who want to remove RA from the map, but it is much easier to say boo hoo Aegis sov.
    Theres a big difference between wanting the mythical good fight as a permanent end in itself, and wanting to wage a strategic campaign and win it, with good fights along the way. If we wanted to fight the same battle over and over again, wed go join RvB or play a round of de_dust2 on CS:GO.

    EVE is a sandbox game, that means you can choose a goal and work for it and feel like you accomplished something when its done. If thats multiboxing 15 carriers in sanctums for awesome isk/hour with avatar boosts or evicting an alliance or roleplaying you are mercenaries or being the best damn trader in outer ring, you can do it.

    The sov system is supposed to facilitate one alliance DEFEATING another, not just giving them casual content day after day (which fozziesov def does not do in either case). If you truly think we should have just left RA in c-j and sat on gates until they deigned to fight us for the foreseeable future, then you may as well advocated all of nullsec be reduced down to 1 region with each alliance in its own system 1j from anyone else with free ships on market ala SISI because there would be no meaning to ever undertaking anything because one day would be interchangeable with another and forgettable in the long run

    We have set out to defeat red menace coalition in Insmother now supported by stainwagon coalition. That will involve grinding, it will involve good fights and bad fights, chill slow nights and crazy brawls that take 4 hours. No one is taking part of this campaign in the lazy expectation that content is just going to be handed to us on a silver platter with no strings attached. However that doesnt mean the thousands of players involved should be punished for trying to fight large scale battles in a PVP game either because you dont like the way we play

    For the 1000th time: we dont care if someone supports TRI or RED or CFC or PL or TEST or whoever, and it doesnt matter if a group has no blues or 3000000 blues; fozziesov mechanics in their current incarnation are not fun.

    But that doesnt change the fact that we still want to have wars and fight other alliances for supremacy when there is something on the line more than just casual fights... we just wish it didn't require so much systemically induced frustration along the way. I'm not sure how I can make this point any clearer. All the anecdotes about good fights past or boring hours sitting on a titan with a blob years ago cant justify introducing poor gameplay mechanics now

    @Smarnca
    The best we can hope for is tweaks to the existing system to change the meta to be more fun since its unlikely the sov system will be redesigned from the ground up any time soon to incorporate DPS mechanics. Frsds ideas are interesting, and certainly a small change like allowing RR on an entosing ship would completely change the meta. I think the overall design philosophy should be to re-capture the entire purpose of the timed event in the first place: an attacker attacks something of value to the defender which requires them to organize and put a pvp-ready force into the same place at the same time as the attacker or lose the asset. Under fozziesov you are punished for being in one place with more than the minimum ship needed to capture a node, and therefore are encouraged to dodge fights. Counter-intuitive.

  8. #388
    Keckers's Avatar
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    how many nodes are there to capture?
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    how many nodes are there to capture?
    Used to be 10 both ways. Now most timers are 8 defender, 12 attacker.
    Only 5 nodes typically spawn at the start.
    Nodes can spawn in any system in the constellation, which makes each constellation it's own unique terrain with strengths and weaknesses.
    Most timers can have attackers from any alliance, but all entosising defenders must be in the defending alliance. This by the way makes it a lot easier to pick on weaker links in a coalition.
    A node fight in a tiny constellation is very different than in a large one. Some are straight pipes, others are easily choked dead end pockets, and some have a central system with a gate to every other system, etc.
    End result is that some constellations are very conducive to a single blob piling up on one gate, shutting it down, and forcing the opponent to fight your main force or lose, while others can easily be skirmished freely by a mobile group of independent small gangs.

    Oh, and even the lowest ADM systems will defend themselves passively in 90 minutes, so an attacker pretty much has to get to work right away to diminish the defender advantage.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Altaen; November 27 2015 at 01:57:59 PM.

  10. #390
    Keckers's Avatar
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    20 nodes sounds like far too many to me.

    That would be the equivalent of plexing ~7 systems at once in FW
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  11. #391

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    @Garst, where do you keep getting the idea that I prefer small gang to large fleets? In regards to your other comments you got just as many battles as most legit dominion sov wars, and more than many. If you want conquest, to teach RA a lesson, or whatever else then mission accomplished as well. The bottom line is sov conquest is rarely about extended periods of war. Both sides fight a few times over the most important objectives, and once one side realizes they can't win they stop fighting. That is exactly what happened to you in this case. You got some good fights, even killing many RMC supers in one, then RA decided they weren't going to win, so they stopped fighting. This isn't new, and isn't an Aegis sov problem. It is a people problem. You want to burn someone's house down, but also want to destroy all of their ships while doing it. They were just smart enough to realize they were going to lose the house, and moved all their stuff over to a friend's instead of letting you blow it up.

    As I said, I am all for bringing back dominion sov where just the threat of the PL super fleet moving in makes alliances evac sov. I am sure PL was looking forward to shooting Nulli and Darkness, but neither of them bothered to even fight one fight before evaccing or saying don't log in for 3 months until they go away. Sounds like loads of fun for people looking for fights.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    @Garst, where do you keep getting the idea that I prefer small gang to large fleets? In regards to your other comments you got just as many battles as most legit dominion sov wars, and more than many. If you want conquest, to teach RA a lesson, or whatever else then mission accomplished as well. The bottom line is sov conquest is rarely about extended periods of war. Both sides fight a few times over the most important objectives, and once one side realizes they can't win they stop fighting. That is exactly what happened to you in this case. You got some good fights, even killing many RMC supers in one, then RA decided they weren't going to win, so they stopped fighting. This isn't new, and isn't an Aegis sov problem. It is a people problem. You want to burn someone's house down, but also want to destroy all of their ships while doing it. They were just smart enough to realize they were going to lose the house, and moved all their stuff over to a friend's instead of letting you blow it up.

    As I said, I am all for bringing back dominion sov where just the threat of the PL super fleet moving in makes alliances evac sov. I am sure PL was looking forward to shooting Nulli and Darkness, but neither of them bothered to even fight one fight before evaccing or saying don't log in for 3 months until they go away. Sounds like loads of fun for people looking for fights.
    RA haven't stopped fighting, they have just switched tactics. Since they have lost all of their moons and renters they no longer have the ability to keep re-shipping in Machariels and caps on a daily basis and have switched to cerbs and orthruses and small gang stuff, in that respect I think Fozzie sov is working really well, you can't remove people by headshotting key systems any-more, you have to grind down all their income and out-meta them first. This means that going into a region like Insmother is going to be a long slog and Tri have been at it for months now, with XIX involved fully for around 6-8(?) weeks I think and therefore their victory is well deserved.

    If you were going to attempt to take down CFC you could not do it anymore by walking into VFK (or wherever they stage form now), headshotting them in 2-3 glorious 3000 man battles then planting your flag and claim victory. You would need to take down one alliance at a time by removing their moons and depriving their members of ratting and mining space by killing i-hub after I-hub. Good luck with that. There are not key timers anymore in sov warfare, its about grinding the enemy down while remaining mobile and keeping your logistics chain running. It's about breaking morale and burning their wallet. I don't think wars can ever be fun in a game, for the same reasons they are not RL (i.e. winning means losing slower than the other guy) but luckily we have moons to have honourable, relatively consequence free e-battles over, and I really hope CCP doesn't remove them.

    I honestly do not think there is a perfect solution with the actual mechanic of winning each sector of space, I have spent quite a long time trying to think of one and EVERY system has its downsides. Pos spam was painful as hell for pos builders. Dominion was horrifically bad for any group smaller than about 100 that didn't have caps and the natural conclusion of it was who had the biggest pile of supers wins. I think Fozzie sov scales well, is accessible as hell and has demonstrated it can produce fights. It optimizes the 'frustration' element of war really well imo. If you don't want to get frustrated, don't invade occupied space unless you have already broken the inhabitants, once you have it's just a mop-up job.

    The existence of space means the existence of pirates.

  13. #393
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    It seems to be the combination of Phoebe jump drive changes and Entosis sov that's making Nullsec fairly unattractive to hold.

    I think it'd probably be more fun and healthier with either one or the other.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  14. #394
    Super Ponerator Global Moderator Evelgrivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    It seems to be the combination of Phoebe jump drive changes and Entosis sov that's making Nullsec fairly unattractive to hold.

    I think it'd probably be more fun and healthier with either one or the other.
    Frankly speaking, I'm pretty sure it's entirely because the pre-Phoebe null game was all about forming fuck-huge deathball fleets, and the space was not particularly attractive to hold in the first place. People just stuck around for the big, sov-crushing death waves that swept through a given region or two every three to six months, until people ran out of targets and it was reduced to once a year. Now that Phoebe and the new Sov System have ended the death waves, the reality of null without the blob is the same as its always been - and that state, while not a particularly great one, is exacerbated by most of the existing null population being pretty bad.
    Last edited by Evelgrivion; November 29 2015 at 10:17:38 PM.

  15. #395
    Garst Tyrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evelgrivion View Post
    ... is exacerbated by most of the existing null population being pretty bad.
    lol

    sorry if were too low tier for you

    how do I manually fly again? I havent done anything except f1 in a 1000 man blob after waiting on a titan for 4 hours since 2009

  16. #396
    Super Ponerator Global Moderator Evelgrivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garst Tyrell View Post
    sorry if were too low tier for you
    Who said anything about Tri?

  17. #397

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    https://zkillboard.com/br/64718/

    Garst, I only have one question. How does it feel to hate PL for "third partying" your war with Nulli, then be forced by XIX to allow PL to "third party" your war with RA, then have this happen?

  18. #398
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    I just want to see Doom's POV of his bait aeon going to 7% armour.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  19. #399
    Garst Tyrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    https://zkillboard.com/br/64718/

    Garst, I only have one question. How does it feel to hate PL for "third partying" your war with Nulli, then be forced by XIX to allow PL to "third party" your war with RA, then have this happen?
    lol

    civil wars > give me attention, NOTICE ME SENPAI

  20. #400

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garst Tyrell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CivilWars View Post
    https://zkillboard.com/br/64718/

    Garst, I only have one question. How does it feel to hate PL for "third partying" your war with Nulli, then be forced by XIX to allow PL to "third party" your war with RA, then have this happen?
    lol

    civil wars > give me attention, NOTICE ME SENPAI
    Funny coming from the guy who writes a dissertation after killing some RA ishtars. Question still stands.

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