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Thread: Arty Alpha Fleets

  1. #21
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Arty is good, but not overpowered.

    And even before touching the alpha, the logistic madness should be looked into.

    What you are proposing is a nerf to small gangs. It`s fucking stupid in my opinion. Will make blobs sit on the gate, take damage, laugh about it, then jump out/warp out. Unless you bring more numbers.

    And as people stated above, reason alpha fleets are popular is the fact that they can break the remote rep shit, and they work better in lag.

  2. #22

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    If the arty abaddons are dumb enough to let the MP abaddons land right on top of them, they're gonna take an ass whupping. It's all about strategy at the end of the day.
    This is essentially the core of the issue - they're not taking a whupping at all. With 4 target painters and 4 webs and a tracking computer, arty is just as capable of tracking at under 10km ranges as any other weapon system, yet with vastly higher alpha. It completely nullifies the advantages all the other weapons systems have.

    Yes, it's nominally a fit to counter close-range, but with tracking computers and sensor boosters being scriptable, bringing a sebo + tracking comp, webs and target painters makes your effective engagement envelope everything from 0 to 120km. No other weapons system can boast of that while also being the most effective in large-scale combat due to the volley damage.

    And yes, we have tried AHACs as well. (They did even worse.)

  3. #23
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    this sounds a bit like the discussion during starcraft2beta about siege tanks:
    sc1's mechanic had a tiny delay between a tank's round fired and impact. this enabled the use of shitty units in drop ships to be dumped on the tanks' heads one by one only to have the enemy tanks fire all their boomsticks at once (nicely dealing large amounts of splash damage to their own kind in the process ^^).
    this overkill does not happen in sc2 where the tanks apply damage instantaneously and move on to the next target if two others have killed this one already.

    this could be applied to eve as well: if a ship were to remain on the field - lockable and shoot'able - for 2-5 more seconds after its actual death, especially arties would waste damage. currently, the maximum overkill is 7 out of 8 grouped arties, of one single ship - no matter how many people shoot the target.

  4. #24
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwergi
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    If the arty abaddons are dumb enough to let the MP abaddons land right on top of them, they're gonna take an ass whupping. It's all about strategy at the end of the day.
    This is essentially the core of the issue - they're not taking a whupping at all. With 4 target painters and 4 webs and a tracking computer, arty is just as capable of tracking at under 10km ranges as any other weapon system, yet with vastly higher alpha. It completely nullifies the advantages all the other weapons systems have.

    Yes, it's nominally a fit to counter close-range, but with tracking computers and sensor boosters being scriptable, bringing a sebo + tracking comp, webs and target painters makes your effective engagement envelope everything from 0 to 120km. No other weapons system can boast of that while also being the most effective in large-scale combat due to the volley damage.

    And yes, we have tried AHACs as well. (They did even worse.)
    So what you are saying is that if you coordinate you tactics, and use targetpainters, web`s, tracking computers, you are actually able to deal some cool volleydamage?

    GTFO

    Maelstrom T2 Arty 3 Gyros RF EMP

    11302 Volley 682 DPS

    Abaddon T2 Tachyons 3 Heatsinks Imperial Multifreq

    5957 Volley 866 DPS

    Also add that the lasers can change crystals in 1 sec.

  5. #25

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    What I'm saying is that by following a specific fleet discipline you can beat all other comparable fleet disciplines. I'm sorry, was that not kind of what this section was about? Or are we meant to assume that only solo fights count for balance?

    Point me at any group that regularly fields battleship fleets and I'll show you a group that has spent a lot of time working out an optimal number of Guardians, Proteii, Lokis and other support ships they need to bring to support the DPS backbone. There's also very likely a standardized fit with specific utility mids fitted. There is absolutely no reason not to assume that a group running alpha ships wouldn't have webs, target painters and tracking computers.

    Therefore, in a situation where you can assume basic competence from both parties, alpha > all.

  6. #26
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwergi
    What I'm saying is that by following a specific fleet discipline you can beat all other comparable fleet disciplines. I'm sorry, was that not kind of what this section was about? Or are we meant to assume that only solo fights count for balance?

    Point me at any group that regularly fields battleship fleets and I'll show you a group that has spent a lot of time working out an optimal number of Guardians, Proteii, Lokis and other support ships they need to bring to support the DPS backbone. There's also very likely a standardized fit with specific utility mids fitted. There is absolutely no reason not to assume that a group running alpha ships wouldn't have webs, target painters and tracking computers.

    Therefore, in a situation where you can assume basic competence from both parties, alpha > all.
    The way you put it here it looks like you have web, tp and tracking computer on the maelstrom itself.

    If thats the case you only have 3 midslots for a shield tank, web would be useless past 10km, and even with a tracking computer, lasers would track roughly 20% better with close-range high damage ammo.

    If you go for armor tank, well, you only have 5 lowslots. Good luck getting a proper buffer tank without making your damage go down the drain.

    You could go for dedicated support ships, for webs and paints etc, maybe T3 for survivability, but as soon as they go down the drain, your maelstrom fleet would simply loose much of their momentum.

    EFT numbers is all great and stuff, and good to use as a guideline. But lets not get overboard because someone can EFT a 11000 volley on a maelstrom.

    From what I remember, the artilleries was buffed, due to a mix of ship hitpoint increase and their rather crap performance.

    What we see now is people bitching about their remoterep crap is getting one vollied by a competent group that can focusfire and and time their shots.

    Their solution? nerf arties so we need MORE people to fight the remote reps.

  7. #27

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    The arty fleets we've been facing have been arty Abaddons, so they have 2 utility mids while having no problems fitting a tank. It's funny that you think only Maelstroms can be used with arties, though. Especially considering arty Abaddons have been the dominant Russian doctrine for as long as Goons have used their Maels.

    There doesn't seem to be any counter apart from arty of your own.

  8. #28

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by TZeer
    Arty is good, but not overpowered.

    And even before touching the alpha, the logistic madness should be looked into.
    This is the best post in the thread tbh. And this is what I was trying to say in the first place. The problem with people overusing arties stems from the problem with people overusing logistics.

    As far as 'we can only use arties to counter them '. That's not the case. Once upon a time amorhax were thought to be unbeatable, it just took till someone thought up a new tactic to beat them. All it takes is some ingenuity, nothing is invincible
    My latest PVP video: Freestyle III

  9. #29
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Ceptor blobs rape arty fleets. People just arnt trying hard enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    at least we're not Greece.

  10. #30
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Also - I told you so on the entire minmatar rebalance (balance individual ships, not entire weapon systems douchbags!).
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    at least we're not Greece.

  11. #31

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern
    Also - I told you so on the entire minmatar rebalance (balance individual ships, not entire weapon systems douchbags!).
    To be fair, they kind of did need a rework across the board. Now if only they'd rebalance blasters as well, life would be dandy
    My latest PVP video: Freestyle III

  12. #32
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwergi
    The arty fleets we've been facing have been arty Abaddons, so they have 2 utility mids while having no problems fitting a tank. It's funny that you think only Maelstroms can be used with arties, though. Especially considering arty Abaddons have been the dominant Russian doctrine for as long as Goons have used their Maels.

    There doesn't seem to be any counter apart from arty of your own.

    Then you should have a look at why arties can be used across the races so well. Not try and nerf a whole weaponsystem for an entire race.

    All minmatar BS has a ROF bonus. Implement that into base stats on the guns, reduce the damage, and give the ships a damage bonus instead.

    Result: No change in the performance arties will have on minmatar ships, but a 25% reduction on volley damage on ships not supposed to use arties.

  13. #33
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern
    Also - I told you so on the entire minmatar rebalance (balance individual ships, not entire weapon systems douchbags!).
    To be fair, they kind of did need a rework across the board. Now if only they'd rebalance blasters as well, life would be dandy
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    at least we're not Greece.

  14. #34
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by TZeer
    The way you put it here it looks like you have web, tp and tracking computer on the maelstrom itself.

    If thats the case you only have 3 midslots for a shield tank, web would be useless past 10km, and even with a tracking computer, lasers would track roughly 20% better with close-range high damage ammo.

    If you go for armor tank, well, you only have 5 lowslots. Good luck getting a proper buffer tank without making your damage go down the drain.

    You could go for dedicated support ships, for webs and paints etc, maybe T3 for survivability, but as soon as they go down the drain, your maelstrom fleet would simply loose much of their momentum.

    EFT numbers is all great and stuff, and good to use as a guideline. But lets not get overboard because someone can EFT a 11000 volley on a maelstrom.

    From what I remember, the artilleries was buffed, due to a mix of ship hitpoint increase and their rather crap performance.

    What we see now is people bitching about their remoterep crap is getting one vollied by a competent group that can focusfire and and time their shots.

    Their solution? nerf arties so we need MORE people to fight the remote reps.
    You sound like you're desperately out of touch with current fleet tactics. I suggest you look at some recent battle reports with Alpha fleets in to see they have no issues wiping out both Abaddons and AB HAC fleets.

  15. #35

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    I never suggested a fix of any sort. I just tried to inform you of what the problem was (and that there was a problem). Not particularly bothered by Maelstroms as such, because they can be countered fairly successfully (with lazors and AHACs). Arty Abaddons are the best of every fleet comp - ridiculous buffer, high alpha, high resists, long range, utility mids. The utility mids also work well to nullify their one real weakness - their tracking.

    Logistics is a problem unto itself. Just reducing the amount repped doesn't solve the problem, it just places higher demands on the number of logistics required. I might consider trying to drop the resists, lock range and sensor strength on the logistics cruisers to make them the weak points in a logi-backed fleet. I don't know if that would work realistically.

  16. #36
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgy Past
    Quote Originally Posted by TZeer
    The way you put it here it looks like you have web, tp and tracking computer on the maelstrom itself.

    If thats the case you only have 3 midslots for a shield tank, web would be useless past 10km, and even with a tracking computer, lasers would track roughly 20% better with close-range high damage ammo.

    If you go for armor tank, well, you only have 5 lowslots. Good luck getting a proper buffer tank without making your damage go down the drain.

    You could go for dedicated support ships, for webs and paints etc, maybe T3 for survivability, but as soon as they go down the drain, your maelstrom fleet would simply loose much of their momentum.

    EFT numbers is all great and stuff, and good to use as a guideline. But lets not get overboard because someone can EFT a 11000 volley on a maelstrom.

    From what I remember, the artilleries was buffed, due to a mix of ship hitpoint increase and their rather crap performance.

    What we see now is people bitching about their remoterep crap is getting one vollied by a competent group that can focusfire and and time their shots.

    Their solution? nerf arties so we need MORE people to fight the remote reps.
    You sound like you're desperately out of touch with current fleet tactics. I suggest you look at some recent battle reports with Alpha fleets in to see they have no issues wiping out both Abaddons and AB HAC fleets.
    Oh sorry, I didnt know I had to be in a blob to voice my opinion.

    And we shoot alliances all the time. It`s not like they draw up some new magical fit when they go out try to fight us.

    I really dont understand what all the bitching is about tbh, if you are getting shot by 50 laser BS or 50 projectile BS there isnt really a big difference.

    You will die.

    From what I remember from the beginning, if you where starting to get shot at, it was time to get out. This has obviously changed due to logistics, and better co-ordination when it comes to target-switching and focus firing.

    Are people complaining about their ship getting vollied? Or that logistics have problem functioning?

    If it`s the first, what the fuck do people expect when they are facing 50-100 man BS fleets?

    If it`s the other, are they on crack? Should logistics be able to operate with no issues, and only chance of getting popped is when someone fucks up the remoterep cycle?

    A reduction in alpha damage would certainly give small pvp groups one less alternative in their toolbox when it comes to dealing with logistic gangs.

  17. #37
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern
    Ceptor blobs rape arty fleets. People just arnt trying hard enough.
    Cool, I'll bring 400 ceptors so I can break triage reps.

  18. #38

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern
    Ceptor blobs rape arty fleets. People just arnt trying hard enough.
    Bubble and bomb your own fleet.

    (Bubbling your own fleet is from my understanding a common enough tactic these days; with ubiquitous spies these days you'd know in advance if the other side was going to do an interceptor fleet and it wouldn't be much sacrifice to set aside a few bombers. This all is just a guess on my part, though).

  19. #39
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Booley
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern
    Ceptor blobs rape arty fleets. People just arnt trying hard enough.
    Cool, I'll bring 400 ceptors so I can break triage reps.
    If we're talking about stationary abaddons with 1400mm's out range/dps them with Maelstromsor lol hybrids. to counter the snipers consider using a nano fleet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    at least we're not Greece.

  20. #40

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Burn Eden commenting on large fleet warfare... And no shit no one tries to counter your unprobable Nightmares or Slaved bait Proteii - it's not worth the effort.

    There's not much wrong with arties on a micro scale, but above 100v100 arties > all. And fights on that scale happen many, many times a day and are thus worth balancing.

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