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Thread: Arty Alpha Fleets

  1. #1
    Garst Tyrell's Avatar
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    Arty Alpha Fleets

    QQ thread

    Thought: Decrease the alpha from arties requiring larger number of people to outright alpha someone? Maintain their role as a heavier alpha ship, but why should they have 10k+ alpha as opposed to a gank abaddon running around 4k, especially when you factor in skill and training requirement differences (read: drakes all over again but worse)?

    100v100 fights were more fun before a fully tanked abaddon could be popped instantly by 20 dudes in unbonused arty ships with good timing. Tracking really isnt an issue because with a couple webs and target painters it becomes more or less a non issue even up close.

    Im finding this to be more of a problem in non-lag situations than laggy fights ironically. OFC blobs in general will build up large alpha, however when you have the dps and alpha split between different pilots and their varying reaction times and server latencies, logi pilots can make a difference and well organized fleets and logistics can shine. At the moment traveling a dozen jumps to spend 10 seconds in a fight before dying because your name starts with A is pretty boring.

    Watching hictors get instavollied is kinda LOL :/

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  2. #2

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    To be honest the reason artillery is so good in fleet combat is not because it is overpowered, it's because logistics are overused. Often mid sized fleet fights (Ie 100v100), are decided simply by who can blob the most logi, so that their ships are almost unbreakable with the massive DPS tank the logi provide. Artillery provides a counter to this line of thought. It's massive alpha lessens the ridiculous fleetwide tank the logistics ships provide by being able to one shot ships with large buffers. As a consequence however artillery ships have slightly poorer tanks, bad dps if there aren't enough to alpha the target, and very poor tracking in close quarters. If logistics weren't as ridiculously powerful as they are, there probably would not have been such a rise in the use of artillery.

    Also I don't understand why you are comparing alpha of a megapulse abaddon to an arty abaddon. Long range weapons ALWAYS have more alpha damage and a slower rate of fire than close range weapons, so whining about artillery having higher alpha than high dps, high tracking close range pulse lasers is rather silly.

    It also begs the question what did you really think would happen if you tried to fight an arty fleet at scorch range?

    Close range fleets with logistics can still contend with arty fleets, it just requires an adjustment of tactics.
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  3. #3
    Helen's Avatar
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Pretty much the only solution is to bring more people in arty ships too or bring supers in.
    Drop a few titans each time and volley them back.

  4. #4
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Hictors and other ships will still get one vollied off the field, it will just be under more lag since people would bring 50-100 more maelstroms anyhow under this change

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Helen
    Pretty much the only solution is to bring more people in arty ships too or bring supers in.
    Can you not just throw a couple of wings of stealth bombers at them?

    (obligatory "i am a lowsec fag who has never bombed anything or been in a fleet of >20 dudes in his life" disclaimer)

  6. #6

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubutai
    Quote Originally Posted by Helen
    Pretty much the only solution is to bring more people in arty ships too or bring supers in.
    Can you not just throw a couple of wings of stealth bombers at them?

    (obligatory "i am a lowsec fag who has never bombed anything or been in a fleet of >20 dudes in his life" disclaimer)
    Successful bombing runs take a lot of coordination, practice, and timing. And it's all they can do, bomb. A lot of people cbf to set them up because of their limited niche
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  7. #7
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Counter to Alpha Fleets:
    - Just plainly ignore them
    - ABHacs
    - Stealthbomber runs
    (- Fleet of frigates?)

  8. #8

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Jalif
    Counter to Alpha Fleets:
    - Just plainly ignore them
    - ABHacs
    - Stealthbomber runs
    (- Fleet of frigates?)
    Arty machs/pests will decimate AB hacs, they're only a viable counter to arty abaddons/maels, which tend to be slow and fat
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    Quote Originally Posted by Jalif
    Counter to Alpha Fleets:
    - Just plainly ignore them
    - ABHacs
    - Stealthbomber runs
    (- Fleet of frigates?)
    Arty machs/pests will decimate AB hacs, they're only a viable counter to arty abaddons/maels, which tend to be slow and fat
    Depending on the fleetsizes tbh. Ones those webs are gone, that stuff doesn't track anymore. And when I understand Alpha fleets, I think of fleets of Mealstrom's because thats what I'm constantly fighting.

    But yeah, Machs/pests with arties can kill AB Hacs, but really depends on the fleet sizes etc.

  10. #10

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Jalif
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    Quote Originally Posted by Jalif
    Counter to Alpha Fleets:
    - Just plainly ignore them
    - ABHacs
    - Stealthbomber runs
    (- Fleet of frigates?)
    Arty machs/pests will decimate AB hacs, they're only a viable counter to arty abaddons/maels, which tend to be slow and fat
    Depending on the fleetsizes tbh. Ones those webs are gone, that stuff doesn't track anymore. And when I understand Alpha fleets, I think of fleets of Mealstrom's because thats what I'm constantly fighting.

    But yeah, Machs/pests with arties can kill AB Hacs, but really depends on the fleet sizes etc.
    I haven't done the giant mael/abaddon arty fleets that you see around, but from my experience with Genos Mach fleets, AB hacs just get slaughtered where they stand.

    That said with the larger abaddon variant if you get an AB hac gang on top of the arty ships the abddons will likely DIAF. Two sides of the arty coin I suppose
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  11. #11
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    That said with the larger abaddon variant if you get an AB hac gang on top of the arty ships the abddons will likely DIAF. Two sides of the arty coin I suppose
    From our experience, spam enough painters and webs on the abaddons and even at 0 they can volley hacs and t3s.


    What garst is crying about here is that our current enemies have been running artybaddons backed up by large numbers of triage carriers and void bombs, which seems so far to be a very effective counter to anyone unable to drop caps of their own. Im not going to cry about their ships being OP, just respect that they've come up with a solid counter for pretty much any cap-using ship.

  12. #12
    Garst Tyrell's Avatar
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    not really crying about the arty abaddon in particular, I just think its a shame that there are weapons that allow small (relatively) numbers of players to turn what would be a tactical fight into the equivalent of a massive blob fight in regards to the longevity of individual ships on the field. i dont think anyone here will say that losing your ship in about a 3 second span is 'fun', no matter which side of players its happening to. I am tempted to say that if you do enjoy that style of massive fight gameplay where alpha and massive numbers are thrown against each other, you can join alliances that specialize in those fights such as nc/drf/-a-. The problem is easy mode alpha (takes like what, 3-5 days to train tech 1 arties that can be used on any race of ships) sucks fun out of smaller fights, where assumedly both combatants were looking for a more tactical fight, rather than who fires first.

    @ shiroi: I'm really not concerned about logi tbh. It takes a decent chunk of sp to fly one right and more importantly it takes a dedicated and skilled pilot to pull off right aka skill/tactics. The only time logi really becomes an issue is when someone gets massively outblobbed, and then the blobbing side also brings a fuckton of logi to guarantee they have no losses. Reality is at that point its a blob issue, not a logi issue.

    Regarding comparing megapulse alpha to arty, when is the last time you have seen anyone run sniper BS? IIRC tachyons only get 1-2k more volley than megapulses anyway, tops. Compare that from like 3k autocannos to 8-10k artillery. The tracking does not outweigh the damage bonus when you have a fleet set up properly to deal with the tracking.

    @ jalif: ignoring doesnt get a fight, although I recognize the importance of blueballing people when they are being faggots. Sometimes when you are losing a highend or a station blueballing just works in their favor when you lose the asset. ABHacs work well vs arty fleets like maelstroms that dont really have much in the way of individual pilot skill, but when you stack enough webs/tps on a target, I was finding even our t3s/damnations/logi/hictors being instapopped no matter how well you flew them, added in fleet bonuses, pulled transversal, etc. Bombing runs are indeed a counter to some extent, but with that argument if you just nuke the enemy fleet with bombs then it doesnt matter what you bring--you are just mopping up survivors. Proper FCing wins fights but it doesnt solve individual game balancing issues.

    @ Booley: Yes their arty abaddon / triage carrier spam is very effective and they do it well, I am still disappointed that no matter how well you fit or fly or spend, you can lose your in seconds with no chance of altering the outcome on a micro level. That speaks of game balancing issues

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    I'm probably the most biased person imaginable on this subject, but I'd go one step farther and say now that projectile weapons have established their dominance over every hull size of combat and every scale of combat (dreads aren't relevant currently), maybe it is time for a broader shakeup....

  14. #14

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    Quote Originally Posted by Garst Tyrell
    I am still disappointed that no matter how well you fit or fly or spend, you can lose your in seconds with no chance of altering the outcome on a micro level. That speaks of game balancing issues
    Thats just the complaint everybody has about The Blob. Nomatter how well you fly or fit, at the end of the day in med-large fleet fights, whoever has the most stuff (particularly caps) wins
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  15. #15
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    i still believe the problem is stacking webs. especially with the loki providing massive HP to back those up.
    6x -60% webs -> -96.1% speed. 4% residual speed equals +2500% tracking after all [unless the arty-users ruin it themselves]

    if the scrambler is supposed to counter am MWD, then a web counters ABs. alas, we can't activate multiple ABs so the multi-webbing is a lopsided feature that has enabled BS to shoot _everything_ for years now.
    in return, we had to give inties quite a massive sig bonus and some web-immunity is suggested for AFs on a regular basis.

    also: speed nerf was ok and all that... and although speeds had gotten 'ludicrous', that nerfbat would've done well to include some tracking levels for medium and large guns. and if not then, at least during the tracking comp/enhancer changes after which the tracking enhancer became popular again for anything that did not have the luxury of amarrian lowslots -.-

  16. #16
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    [quote=Shiroi Okami]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Garst Tyrell":12ml7qmd
    I am still disappointed that no matter how well you fit or fly or spend, you can lose your in seconds with no chance of altering the outcome on a micro level. That speaks of game balancing issues
    Thats just the complaint everybody has about The Blob. Nomatter how well you fly or fit, at the end of the day in med-large fleet fights, whoever has the most stuff (particularly caps) wins[/quote:12ml7qmd]

    I'd really like it for that not to be the case when its only 100 people on a side. Sure, makes perfect sense for 1000 person blob fights, but considering the numbers we have these days having any ship sub-capital instapop in 50-100 man fights is just silly.

  17. #17

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    [quote=Booley]
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    Quote Originally Posted by "Garst Tyrell":2scnt579
    I am still disappointed that no matter how well you fit or fly or spend, you can lose your in seconds with no chance of altering the outcome on a micro level. That speaks of game balancing issues
    Thats just the complaint everybody has about The Blob. Nomatter how well you fly or fit, at the end of the day in med-large fleet fights, whoever has the most stuff (particularly caps) wins
    I'd really like it for that not to be the case when its only 100 people on a side. Sure, makes perfect sense for 1000 person blob fights, but considering the numbers we have these days having any ship sub-capital instapop in 50-100 man fights is just silly.[/quote:2scnt579]

    To be honest these days because pretty much everything does high dps or alpha even in a 100v100 scenario everything will be instapopped by everything anyway. 100 MP abaddons firing simultaneously is a 390000 damage volley, so anything with less ehp than that is going to die in one hit. 100 arty abaddons is roughly a 1000000 volley, so it's basically the same thing, just with more range and and a slower rate of fire. Once you get over a certain number of players in a fight (Around 50-70 in the case of battleships), everything is going to die extremely quickly, because that's just the way the damage mechanics work
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  18. #18
    Garst Tyrell's Avatar
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    [quote=Shiroi Okami][quote=Booley]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Shiroi Okami":s1eleqwt
    Quote Originally Posted by "Garst Tyrell":s1eleqwt
    I am still disappointed that no matter how well you fit or fly or spend, you can lose your in seconds with no chance of altering the outcome on a micro level. That speaks of game balancing issues
    Thats just the complaint everybody has about The Blob. Nomatter how well you fly or fit, at the end of the day in med-large fleet fights, whoever has the most stuff (particularly caps) wins
    I'd really like it for that not to be the case when its only 100 people on a side. Sure, makes perfect sense for 1000 person blob fights, but considering the numbers we have these days having any ship sub-capital instapop in 50-100 man fights is just silly.[/quote:s1eleqwt]

    To be honest these days because pretty much everything does high dps or alpha even in a 100v100 scenario everything will be instapopped by everything anyway. 100 MP abaddons firing simultaneously is a 390000 damage volley, so anything with less ehp than that is going to die in one hit. 100 arty abaddons is roughly a 1000000 volley, so it's basically the same thing, just with more range and and a slower rate of fire. Once you get over a certain number of players in a fight (Around 50-70 in the case of battleships), everything is going to die extremely quickly, because that's just the way the damage mechanics work[/quote:s1eleqwt]

    correct and a blob is a blob. The point im making is, the 1400 arty is the only item in the game that with about 1.5 days of training from projectiles 0 to large projectiles 3 you can fit a line if guns on pretty any BS and get max alpha. It makes the drake look sp intensive by comparison. More importantly the point remains that you have a small number of players able to inflict the alpha you would expect in a larger fight by a magnitude.

  19. #19

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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    [quote=Garst Tyrell][quote="Shiroi Okami":2ix9li92][quote=Booley]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Shiroi Okami":2ix9li92
    Quote Originally Posted by "Garst Tyrell":2ix9li92
    I am still disappointed that no matter how well you fit or fly or spend, you can lose your in seconds with no chance of altering the outcome on a micro level. That speaks of game balancing issues
    Thats just the complaint everybody has about The Blob. Nomatter how well you fly or fit, at the end of the day in med-large fleet fights, whoever has the most stuff (particularly caps) wins
    I'd really like it for that not to be the case when its only 100 people on a side. Sure, makes perfect sense for 1000 person blob fights, but considering the numbers we have these days having any ship sub-capital instapop in 50-100 man fights is just silly.[/quote:2ix9li92]

    To be honest these days because pretty much everything does high dps or alpha even in a 100v100 scenario everything will be instapopped by everything anyway. 100 MP abaddons firing simultaneously is a 390000 damage volley, so anything with less ehp than that is going to die in one hit. 100 arty abaddons is roughly a 1000000 volley, so it's basically the same thing, just with more range and and a slower rate of fire. Once you get over a certain number of players in a fight (Around 50-70 in the case of battleships), everything is going to die extremely quickly, because that's just the way the damage mechanics work[/quote:2ix9li92]

    correct and a blob is a blob. The point im making is, the 1400 arty is the only item in the game that with about 1.5 days of training from projectiles 0 to large projectiles 3 you can fit a line if guns on pretty any BS and get max alpha. It makes the drake look sp intensive by comparison. More importantly the point remains that you have a small number of players able to inflict the alpha you would expect in a larger fight by a magnitude.[/quote:2ix9li92]

    Hyperbole aside, yes artillery is less skill intensive that tech 2 megapulses, but saying you can get the max alpha from 1.5 days of training is just silly. You can get enough alpha to be useful, sure, but t2 is always going to be the better option. And as far as a small number of players inflicting high damage, that was the whole idea behind the arty rework. Horrendously slow rate of fire, bad tracking, bad dps, but a ridiculous volley damage. What I'm saying really is that no tactic is unbeatable, it just requires the right tactics or fittings to counter it. If you warped in 20 1 month old chars in MP abaddons on 20 1 month old chars in arty abaddons, each one will be able to kill the other depending on what tactic is used. If the MP abaddons are retarded and let themselves get caught 100 off the arty abaddon's they in for some pain. If the arty abaddons are dumb enough to let the MP abaddons land right on top of them, they're gonna take an ass whupping. It's all about strategy at the end of the day.

    tl;dr I really don't think arty is overpowered, you just have to think outside the box. Like gypsy band apparently do with void bombs + arty. I've never seena void bomb used in game, so kudos to them for that tactic.
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  20. #20
    Dodgy Past's Avatar
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    Re: Arty Alpha Fleets

    The skill requirements for MP Abaddons are far far higher since you need:
    ESO V, Energy Management V and Controlled Bursts V plus T2 because you have to have Scorch.

    Whereas for an arty ship you're almost never going to benefit from T2 ammo, and if you were to use Tremor then you're massively over the range an MP Abaddon would engage at.

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