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  1. #22601
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Erich: Focus on a case that supports your "argument", accuse only the other side of doing it, disregard obvious failure to address the problem in the principle itself, fail to see how this can be unfairly used by your side but agree when it's used against your side by the other side. Double standard overload.
    Show me the list of people fired for these offenses, where they weren't actual racists/homophobes/whatever.

    As I said, capitalism wants to exploit all equally, and there is no value in having one of your employees be hateful to others, so, it's sanitized. It's really that simple. There is absolutely no evidence I can see of a great voiceless mass of people, persecuted unfairly and fired for made up offenses that made people "unsafe". I've see people captured on camera being racist asshole to school children, etc, and they were sanctioned, and that, imo, is absolutely the correct course of action.

    I've see a few sad attempts at using this kind of argument to get people sanctioned unfairly, and those are generally, I'd say to this point, called out and exposed for what they are.

    Show me facts.
    meh

  2. #22602
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    I am not an institution that collects data for you, my man, but let some time pass and I'm sure we'll have more and more examples that I'll find out a very small percentage of about, and I'll link them here to surely see you disregard them as "that's just a couple of examples in a country of 350 million people so statistically insignificant".

    Kinda like, you know, another very specific issue that turned into quite a big thing in the USA lately where whole groups of people were branded by color of their skin privilege and color of their uniform racism and it's becoming the norm, seeping into politics... What could go wrong.jpg
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  3. #22603
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I am not an institution that collects data for you, my man, but let some time pass and I'm sure we'll have more and more examples that I'll find out a very small percentage of about, and I'll link them here to surely see you disregard them as "that's just a couple of examples in a country of 350 million people so statistically insignificant".

    Kinda like, you know, another very specific issue that turned into quite a big thing in the USA lately where whole groups of people were branded by color of their skin privilege and color of their uniform racism and it's becoming the norm, seeping into politics... What could go wrong.jpg
    Maybe it's because they perpetuate a system designed to be racist, at its very core, like you keep conveniently ignoring.

    Maybe people are sick and fucking tired of the all the racists.
    meh

  4. #22604

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I am not an institution that collects data for you, my man, but let some time pass and I'm sure we'll have more and more examples that I'll find out a very small percentage of about, and I'll link them here to surely see you disregard them as "that's just a couple of examples in a country of 350 million people so statistically insignificant".

    Kinda like, you know, another very specific issue that turned into quite a big thing in the USA lately where whole groups of people were branded by color of their skin privilege and color of their uniform racism and it's becoming the norm, seeping into politics... What could go wrong.jpg
    "Reverse racism" is not a thing, it requires a power dynamic, and being police is a choice.

    Jfc.

  5. #22605

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I am not an institution that collects data for you, my man, but let some time pass and I'm sure we'll have more and more examples that I'll find out a very small percentage of about, and I'll link them here to surely see you disregard them as "that's just a couple of examples in a country of 350 million people so statistically insignificant".

    Kinda like, you know, another very specific issue that turned into quite a big thing in the USA lately where whole groups of people were branded by color of their skin privilege and color of their uniform racism and it's becoming the norm, seeping into politics... What could go wrong.jpg
    "Reverse racism" is not a thing, it requires a power dynamic, and being police is a choice.

    Jfc.
    Nah man, being police is about all some folks have after they don't make the cut for firefighting...

  6. #22606
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    If cops dont want to be called out for being violent thugs they can just get a proper job.

    If you claim the woke brigade are causing a spate of unfair dismissals the burden of truth is on you.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  7. #22607
    walrus's Avatar
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    Anecdotal evidence from vlogs are solid in my book.
      Spoiler:
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    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
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    walrus isnt a bad poster.
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    also i like walrus.
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    Yer a hoot

  8. #22608

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    If you claim the woke brigade are causing a spate of unfair dismissals the burden of truth is on you.
    An exciting hot take on 2017 FHC: "But some people make up Rape accusations".
    Or was that 2015.
    Please don't teach me what to do with my pc.

  9. #22609
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    Lief I have never met a person fired from their job because of a woke mob. Your fear of woke political action is bizarre. Most shitty sexist, racist, homophobes keep their jobs. Some are promoted for it. Its not like all the woke sjws are ascending the ranks. I don't know what's happening in Croatia but here, the people being outed are fucking full on morons doing it on camera. They were on camera before, no one gave a shit.

    You get called right winf sympathizer because you are saying lines people on Fox News spit out. Consider that and perhaps think about the sources you link. If those are your beliefs ok, but i am still lost as to how you call yourself a leftist when most of what you rally against is what conservatives here do as well.

  10. #22610
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Maybe because I recognize reasonable and utterly idiotic policies and behaviors from any side. It's much easier for me to find ones I like from the left and ones I hate from the right, and since we're mostly discussing USA here and your "new left" generation ideas are on the rise culture-wise I'm mostly focused on them, the situation in Croatia and Europe is a bit different. So ofc I am biased as well. I am also very contrarian generally and instinctively oppose "authority" or majority opinion or trends and I have a tendency to criticize myself and my side/crew/party/ideology (so, mostly the left) because I hold them to probably unreasonable higher standards.

    To put it like this through just a few examples:

    Things I support from both sides:
    Focusing on safety, family, societal stability, supporting free enterprise, private ownership, individual responsibility, moral (religious) values, harsh penalties for violent crimes, pride from your nation's history and progress to an advanced western society - I can understand and support these right wing policies.
    Focusing on individual freedom, legal equality between sexes, rights of minorities, tolerance between individuals, rehabilitation of criminals and less stupid laws that send people to jail, progressive social policies such as UBI and healthcare for all - I can understand and support these left wing policies.

    Things I hate from both sides:
    Full blown nationalism, racism, religious-backed misogyny, laissez-faire capitalism, disregarding social support policies and branding them as communism and gulag support, separating immigrant children from parents, ignoring history of western exploitation of other cultures - complete bollocks.
    Completely open border policies, disbanding police, wokeness, claiming no differences between sexes, totalitarian communist regimes, wannabe anarchist thugs, ignoring societal progress in the West compared to most of the planet - complete bollox.

    I am ESPECIALLY touchy on any form of violence (other than self defence or against someone who is personally, specifically, directly proven and guilty of harming others) and ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY touchy on people using inflammatory passive-aggressive rhetoric that could and would lead to violence, especially since most of those who use it don't actually end up in the thick of it and let others do the dirty deed and get fucked.
    Mob mentality and censorship is abhorrent, regardless of who does it.
    Ignoring facts that are actually true that the other side uses just because the other side used it, in spite of the fact being true. Limiting discourse just on a limited part that fits your side's narrative and ignoring the part the other side is focused on, because both sides find the other side's arguments uncomfortable truths that fuck up their own narrative (black on black crime problem vs police brutality vs blacks problem).
    What annoys me the most is this feeling of superiority over or dehumanizing the other side, which you can see on both sides, and lumping people in arbitrary groups like "all x are y" statements to support your own ideology, because this pushes "centre moderate" people towards the extremes of the other side. So a lot of it is also very personalized, I don't really care what you think and what you want as long as you don't actively do ill to other people or directly support it through rhetoric.
    This lack of self criticism, both individual and of your side's ideology and letting things spiral out of control and pretending bad apples from your own group are not fucking things up and not taking care of it while blaming the other side for the same fucking thing and not working on true progress and disregarding everything and everybody from the "other" side, is what got us here in the first place.
    This form of communicating, through written form over the internet, exacerbates these divisions even more. Not talking face to face is bullshit, basically.
    I don't have all the answers to all the problems of humanity and am not smarter than everyone else, otherwise I'd be president of the world, but I reserve what's left of my right to ridicule stupidity and dangerous regressive behavior from both sides.

    ((I'm actually really proud of this pun. Gotta remember to use it to seem smarter more often.))
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 10 2020 at 01:57:41 AM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  11. #22611

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    Whew. That's a lot of bold generalized assumptions about a lot of people and spectacular lumping together.

  12. #22612
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Well, I'm not the only human on the planet, they are billions, and we are talking about left and right policies, ideologies and members of it. Feel free to try and write more than 3 lines of text to explain your opinion once or twice, it could be quite cathartic and maybe less people will brand you with an adjective.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  13. #22613
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    The thing about violence is it comes in many forms, and there is one side here that has really taken it to an extreme and wielded it effectively to subdue a majority comprised of minorities and whites, and has used it time and time again to find ways to bend public sentiment to fearing the other. That side isn't the "left", Woke culture has not begotten violence on a societal scale. People are angry because they are dying, not because they are upset about tweets. Social media sucks, I don't personally use it, but these issues that the "woke" people you are upset about are yeling about, I'd rather have the basic masses on the side of the people that haven't been commiting violence than on the other side. Because they've been there before, and it was never good for an minority group.

    For a lot of people here, life isn't full blown war, but it's pretty fucking awful. Do you worry about dying whenever you encounter a police officer? Do you feel afraid because you are a LGBTQ person in a conservative suburb? Do you not have the same rights granted to you despite the law because it's ok for someone to cast you aside since you are an immigrant or child of one?

    There are those in the Democratic Party that are full of shit and empty souls. I get it, I have left so many left wing groups because they were ineffective and just prattling on and on about dumb shit. I have never felt they were the enemy though. I have always known that it was not them. I don't view every individual as a souless cretin like Erich does, but I really cannot say "yeah vote for Trump, I get why you do it, you aren't racist, sexist, homophobic, and willing to kiill millions if they take away healthcare". The man has let 130,000 people die and has done fuck all to prevent the spread. ALONE that would be enough to decry anyone voting for him. By years end, we could have 500k or more dead, yet that and the insane pile of everything else he's done is somehow forgiveable to support?

    It's not. It's backing a piece of shit. At some point you stand for your countrymen or you stand for a idol. If you lived here and saw the shit I see, or talked to the neighbors I have, which yeah some I've talked to like the police and are black, but they also seem to have pride in the kids they see marching, fighting, even rioting. It's not a matter of saying "I like to criticize the people I know best". There is a pretty clear wrong here. Backing the system we have only leads to more of the same.

  14. #22614
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    I hate to break it to you, and this is my opinion only so it's basically worth less than the number of 0's and 1's needed to project it on your screen, but if you think Trump is the sole reason for all the shit you're in now, you might want to reread the entire history of USA and its systems. He's just the poisonous cherry on the venomous cake that has been rotting since WW2 on a table full of maggots since 1600's, basically.

    A lot of people who voted for him did so because he was the first one after a long time who at least pretended to think of the white working class, still a majority of people living in USA. Minorities need protection, but so does the fucking majority, because you're all humans living in the same country at the end of the day, and you must not ignore one OR the other. The white supremacists and racists who exist in the USA also obviously voted for that cretin, and fuck them, but the majority of people are not them. I mean, anyone smart saw through the bullshit, but there were many desperate people of all colors back then, and now too, mostly white and living in continental, forgotten states, poor neighborhoods in large cities, abandoned towns, with dead factories and opiate epidemics and crime on the rise and jobs disappearing and god knows what else who looked at your joke of a political system and thought Republicans with this simple idiot had a more legit platform that would help them, because the other side offered Hilary Clinton and more of the same while literally branding them "deplorables". It took a fucking epidemic with hundreds of thousands dead or potentially dying in the near future, millions unemployed in an economy that crashed for god knows which time in the last 20 years and videos of your citizens getting killed by police for the 150,000th time to finally get the USA populace off their collective asses and finally fucking moving cause you lived such cozy lives, relatively speaking in comparison to most of the planet, so I have to wonder how Trump's presidency would have potentially played out without it and how much of this revolution would have taken place. Everyone prior to him was just lucky this cascade didn't happen during their presidency because things would have been very, very similar. Or even worse, people would have stayed cozy and safe because the wool would have still been pulled over your eyes cause you wouldn't have this obvious anti-idol to blame for everything.

    Other than that, I don't disagree with your post at all, because believe it or not I'm not a right wing racist and I share your sentiments and that's your own experience and it's one of 350 million stories in the USA and one of 7.5 billion stories in the world. I just hope that all these young people in the USA understand how much effort and work it's gonna take to actually make changes, you have to become the system and deal with all the shit you blame the old generation for not solving, and it ain't an easy job, just marching and posting black squares and blaming the system and institutions and canceling opinions and viewpoints you don't want to hear and frothing at the mouth at the other side who doesn't agree with all your opinions ain't gonna solve shit. So get constructive and ready to toil blood, sweat and tears, grow food, work in construction, clean shit, deal with crime and the ugly side of humanity, finish colleges and universities to govern and work in a very complicated world together with many people who you might disagree with on many issues but whose opinion is just as valid as yours (if you believe all humans are equal), just like everyone else on the planet since the beginning of time trying to solve the same exact problems, dealing with all of life's harsh realities and dirty jobs and falling into the same traps time and time again. Because at the end of the day, everyone is there only for themselves for a short amount of time and wants as comfortable of a life as possible. And remember, "your" side is not infallible and, as you've seen, things can escalate quickly towards real ugly and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Before the RESOURCE WARS!!1! begin, at least, if they haven't already. Then we're all fucked anyway and get ready to die
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 10 2020 at 07:06:13 AM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  15. #22615
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    I'm sort of wondering what you are aiming for here. I mean, I don't know if rightfully calling out J. K. Rowling as a TERF leads to any violence, or that it actually even could. I'm sure there are people who call out for her to be literally killed, but I'm not sure how seriously you can take those. In contrast, many individuals call out for death of transgender people and they are literally killed daily. Can you really equate the two?

    Somehow I just get the impression that you would like everyone to unite under one banner calling out for equal economic opportunity for all. I mean, one can support many things simultaneously? Also, if the majority would need protection too, why don't they just ally with the minorities? Support minorities in their struggle, minorities support them in their struggle? When problems are many, multi-track drifting is fine. In a way I feel you're calling that all lives matter when people are chanting black lives matter, but the issue is that it's not that all lives don't matter - black lives just don't matter as much as other lives, and the current struggle is to get everyone's lives to matter equally. In BLM context, sure, I'm sure everyone supports the idea that driving larger economic changes is important but the BLM crowd are rightly pointing out that they have a hard time joining that struggle because they are bleeding and would really like that wound to be treated first. Once that's done, sure, it's easier to march alongside the others when they are no longer worried about dying on the way.

    Also, somehow I get the impression from your post that you're arguing "Protest! No, not like that - constructively, like I tell you!". But the current BLM protests have achieved much, but of course systemic change takes time. The officers have been jailed (even though the scum who murdered Breonna Taylor are still at large), several police departments have had extensive changes or have been straight out disbanded, etc etc. I just feel that you're blaming people that they are not organized because not all of them are right now. And being organized, having enough free time and opportunity to actually do that is type of a privilege in itself.

    I'd also like to point out that no, not all opinions are equally valid. To give an example, your opinion on police violence on basis of the numbers of interactions is not as valid as some other that is based on multiple peer-reviewed studies (the study you cited was not even peer-reviewed; unless you had other data and looked into meta-analyses showing the opposite result, it seemed like cherry picking). In order for things to advance, it's really important to accept that not all opinions are equal. One of the ways to do this is to shout at someone on Twitter: when shouted at, you can either double down on your opinion and dig a deeper hole (Rowling method) or explain your reasoning, accept the opposing viewpoint but disagree, and move on (Wynn method). This is why I've been asking you to explain why you link a video: show that you did your research on viewpoints from several sides, argue why you think your video is relevant and what an opposing viewpoint is missing. Otherwise it just feels condescending, like we've never read a paper in our life or considered our own viewpoints.

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  16. #22616
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    It's easy to be outraged at all the injustices in the world.
    It's hard to actually go out and work on fixing them.
    It's impossible to actually fix them all.

    I've been following USA's history and its development as it happens, as well as reading, watching, listening and debating the extremes of ideologies and how they can develop into something stupid and dangerous and potentially fatal for the last 30 years, literally, from historical revolutions to nazism to communism and everywhere in between as much as I could as a non-academic.

    With the "new woke left snowflake" generation, especially in the USA, you know, where 30% of kids want to be fucking Youtube stars and an increasing number of students are getting bullshit sociology diplomas in universities with safe spaces instead of learning to actually work in the real world in jobs that don't involve typing on a computer, and let me tell you the youth of Croatia ain't very inspiring in that regard either, and who seem to operate increasingly through tweeter inspired outrage "activism" and have a complete disconnect from many members of their own society doing all the dirty jobs needed to actually run said society that allows them to live their twitter lives, you'll excuse me if I do sound condescending and worried there could be a meltdown in a couple of years when they slam into the harsh wall of reality. I'm not saying "well just give up and die", I'm saying get ready to grow some thick fucking skin and face some nasty facts.

    I've written way too many posts and already spent too much of both mine and your time, so you'll excuse me if I don't take you all by the hand and hold a 3 hour lecture when linking a video or presenting my opposite view to the post I'm replying to, because, guess what, you already have the post I'm replying to and know your own biased opinions, and god forbid you actually watch and listen to something from start to finish without emotions that your echo chamber already branded as "racist propaganda" and think for yourself without an intro, trigger warning or my opinion. If you don't know both sides of the argument, you have no argument is my motto.

    The fact I even have to explain this so many fucking times is irritating. Even if we agree on 90% of basically everything about things wrong in USA, from George Floyd's killing being basically murder by police to police brutality to existence of racism to uncaring government elites and Trump being a total imbecile whose rhetoric only made things worse, here's roughly what was enough to brand me as a right wing racist, mostly based on my opposition to the type of rhetoric used :

    1) Claiming USA and its police is not systematically anti-black but anti-poor, that by my definition it was systematically racist until the 60s (due to actual literal laws against blacks) and now deals with leftovers of that + war on drugs/crime policies + anti poor policies, ignoring all the progress made throughout history being antiproductive
    2) Claiming it's stupid to call the whole police institutionally racist or class traitors because that only alienates police officers who are not racists (most of them) and also discourages good people from becoming police officers in the future
    3) Claiming stats used by some posters and by BLM-supporting people on the internet were inflated or wrong, posting counter stats and research results which were also sometimes wrong but more often than not verified (blacks killed by cops per million vs blacks killed by cops per interaction vs blacks killed by blacks) to see if anyone addresses or acknowledges the other side of the problem or see how stats can be interpreted differently based on whose narrative it fits, with often both sides being right but ignoring the other side because "racist propaganda"
    4) Claiming that literally all people who voted Trump are racist being factually not true
    5) Calling out the fucking hypocrisy of everyone jumping on this outrage train, when blacks have been and are dying in much bigger numbers to other forms of violence (crime) in absolutely insane numbers for years and years and almost nobody batted an eye nowhere near as much
    6) Making fun of virtue signaling, people posting black squares on Instagrams and other fucking bullshit, saying this is not all Trump and Republicans fault but also Democrats
    7) Pointing out all the details of BLM as an organization and its activists rhetoric that will alienate potential white allies and moderates (their self proclaimed marxism, deconstruction of families program, white privilege narrative, systemic racism of the whole country, institutional racism of entire police force), saying All Lives Matter should not in any sane discourse or language be grounds for automatically branding someone racist, and how insisting on racial division literally plays into the hands of the right
    8) Pointing out all the rhetoric that will make this cause lose black allies (black victimhood, blaming everything on white racism, ignoring violence and crime in the black community, ignoring opposing black opinions, ignoring personal responsibility and black community responsibility, naming them race traitors or Uncle Toms)
    9) Claiming black conservatives have a fucking say in this as well and saying not all black people agree with BLM, laugh when white posters utterly disregard opinion of said black people as "right wing propaganda"
    10) and most important: pointing out the type of posting and thoughts that are downright disgusting in principle ("not valid humans" etc etc, mostly Erich's more controversial posts which really struck a nerve (and bashing Isyel whenever I could because it's low hanging fruit but oh so sweet) and getting annoyed when you piled on me with "racist!!1!" while missing the point, which in turn made me up the ante and things escalated, while pointing out how this is again exactly how you actually push people away.

    And you immediately took all this as an attack upon the black community itself, as if I denied George Floyd's death and all previous killings, as if I denied police violence against blacks, acknowledging Trump's disgusting incompetence, acknowledging racists exist both in USA and its police, acknowledging most BUT NOT ALL of your views. Now, if this was enough to brand ME, who actually sympathizes with black Americans, a racist and draw all this "hate" that I had to post again and again to explain it and all you got from it is "here goes the racist again", then I'm sincerely unconvinced that any sort of mature discussion can be had at all and use my example on how to think what you say, otherwise you'll lose more and more allies down the way and then wonder "WAT HAPEN" when actual racists start increasing in numbers and power.

    I'm done explaining this shit over and over and over and over. Good luck with the fight for a better USA and more political correctness. Also, get fucked. Furthermore
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; July 10 2020 at 09:11:05 AM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  17. #22617

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    Where are you being called racist again? Since when are you cosplaying Alistair now?

    There's a gigantic difference between people saying youre spreading right wing bullshit talking points in abject ignorance vs being attacked for being a racist dickhead. You're getting the former quite consistently.
    Last edited by Isyel; July 10 2020 at 09:13:52 AM.

  18. #22618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post

    With the "new woke left snowflake" generation, especially in the USA, you know, where 30% of kids want to be fucking Youtube stars and an increasing number of students are getting bullshit sociology diplomas in universities with safe spaces instead of learning to actually work in the real world in jobs that don't involve typing on a computer
    stronk boomer scenes indeed
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    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  19. #22619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I denied George Floyd's death...
    Literally worse than hitler

  20. #22620
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Are you really saying that there isn't something called institutionalized racism at all there, Lief? Or are you saying the US police isn't racist on an institutional level?

    Also what Isyel said. No one here have called you a racist to the best of my knowledge.

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